power failure siphon prevention.

Bovetek · #1 05/04/2005, 09:59 PM

I'm setting up the sump that I got last weekend from Kevin. I have all the plumbing done except for the return. I got a Mag 7 and am starting to plumb the return. How do you guys have yours setup? any advice on what to do with the return water?. Manifold, tree, or just a hose going into the tank. Also how do I keep the water from back siphoning in case of power failure? I tried to do a search but the search tool is down. I read somewhere about putting a hole into the return, but where.

Ben

gkmartinez · #2 05/04/2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bovetek
putting a hole into the return

I put mine about an inch below the waterline.

Bovetek · #3 05/04/2005, 10:41 PM

Thanks George,
Did anyone notice the gigantic bright light over northeastern Colorado? It can from the space between my ears, as soon as I read George's reply. My wife was reading it over my shoulder and said " well you dumba@@!!! where else would you put the hole" OK so now I'm really embarassed to have asked the question. I sometimes over think things. SO if you a more elaborate solution please forward to me. It will help heal my mental wounds.

Ben

fossill · #4 05/04/2005, 11:05 PM

Yeah, until the first time I saw the hole work, I had no idea why it needed to go there. I guess there isn't a rule of where to put it, just make sure its high enough so that your sump doesn't overflow before the back siphon breaks!

jdallred · #5 05/04/2005, 11:27 PM

Two options that I know of:

1) Drill a hole in the return line, as George stated, about an inch or so under the water. The only problem is the hole can become clogged with algae and not break the siphon.

2) Keep the return nozzle higher in up in the water, again about an inch or so under the water. The only problem is you are limited in the depth the flow from the return line can go.

Either way you decided to go make sure you run a test by turning off the power to the return pump, let it back siphon until it stops, and then fill the sump/fuge to the level you want it to stop.

gkmartinez · #6 05/04/2005, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bovetek
Thanks George,
Did anyone notice the gigantic bright light over northeastern Colorado? It can from the space between my ears, as soon as I read George's reply. My wife was reading it over my shoulder and said " well you dumba@@!!! where else would you put the hole" OK so now I'm really embarassed to have asked the question. I sometimes over think things. SO if you a more elaborate solution please forward to me. It will help heal my mental wounds.

Ben

That is funny. I learned the hard way. I had a 125g and I lived in Broomfield. Electricity always going out.

I was coming home from work on hwy 36 saw the lights flashing and that same light you just saw Ben went off in my head.

Came home and at least 25g back siphoned onto my floor and down the walls to the basement room that i had just remodeled.

Since then I used both methods Joe outlines.

aqua_obs · #7 05/05/2005, 12:03 AM

George, I've done the 25ga siphon too! We should start a club.

I'd put the hole only 1/2" below because an inch is a lot of water in a big tank. I'd put more than one hole too. I used an 1/8" bit and you should check it from time to time and run a cleaner though it too.

Seems like we need to get one of those battery powered airpumps too for power outages.

jdallred · #8 05/05/2005, 12:07 AM

Ben, what size tank and sump do you have?

rplank · #9 05/05/2005, 05:42 AM

Ok, here's my rocket scientist solution.

I have a 20L with a 10 sump. When I plumbed it together, the plan was to have the two 1/4" back-siphon-prevention-holes about 1/2" under the surface of the water. Well, when all was said and done, the return is crooked, and one hole is about 1/4" above water line, and the other is almost 1/4" below water line. It has worked great so far! Next to nothing is siphoned down to the sump, because as soon as the pump stops pushing water out the fountain hole, air sucks into it. I have a little mini fountain shooting across the water from the hole above the water line, and I don't have to worry about a snail plugging it! It has worked flawlessly, close to a hundred times so far, when I do siphon maintenance.

Just my ghetto experience!

Clown-N-Around · #10 05/05/2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bovetek
Thanks George,
Did anyone notice the gigantic bright light over northeastern Colorado? It can from the space between my ears, as soon as I read George's reply. My wife was reading it over my shoulder and said " well you dumba@@!!! where else would you put the hole" OK so now I'm really embarrassed to have asked the question. I sometimes over think things. SO if you a more elaborate solution please forward to me. It will help heal my mental wounds.

Ben

Quote:

Originally posted by rplank
one hole is about 1/4" above water line, and the other is almost 1/4" below water line. ... I have a little mini fountain shooting across the water from the hole above the water line, and I don't have to worry about a snail plugging it!

Don't be embarrassed, Ben. The pre-fab return on our first reef happens to be drilled the way Randy's is, with the hole above the surface and the "fountain". So, I thought that is where it was supposed to go. In fact, like he says, then you are not draining 1/2" even before the siphon breaks. Therefore, I feel like an even bigger moron because I still don't know where the "right" place to drill is. Maybe it just doesn't matter as long as you don't put a "fountain" outside your tank and you are comfortable with the depth of water will drain before you reach the siphon breaker.

Bovetek · #11 05/05/2005, 02:22 PM

Well now I don't feel so bad. I have a 37 gal and a 20L sump. I'm hoping the sump will be big enough for the 65 I plan on getting later in the year. Anyway I kinda like the "fountain" effect you guys/gals (is that politically correct) have suggested, that way there will be some surface movement too. I called Yale to get his advice on the heighth of the center baffle and partitions. Got some great info. Glad I called him before I installed the baffles. I'm going to put the tank in position with everything as if it were ready to go. (just the tank no partions) put water in and start er up. when everything levels out, shut off the power and see just how much higher the water level gets. Does this sound like a plan or am I all wet? (pun intended)

Ben

rplank · #12 05/05/2005, 02:27 PM

Yup! Trial and error can be your friend! (Or your worst enemy.....I always have my wife closeby to help soak up any problems.

)
Good luck!

Mr.Lizard · #13 05/05/2005, 02:49 PM

Yup- we should start a club-

FLOOD CLUB!!

What's the first rule of Flood Club?

ALWAYS talk about Flood Club! LOL

A lot of the premade return outlets already have the holes- at least mine do.
I tend to make floods when I'm making RO/DI water....I don't have anywhere in this house to permanently install it, so I pull it out of the closet and hook it up in the kitchen sink connected to the faucet and into a 7 gallon carboy (home brewing supplies!) and then promptly space it out. At least the kitchen floor gets mopped regularly-
I've since pulled my head out and made use of the timer on the stove....Ain't technology cool??

Bovetek · #14 05/05/2005, 03:41 PM

Could somebody please post a pic of their return outlet. I'm still waiting (lost in transit) for the Mag7 I ordered, but would like everthing ready to go when it finally arrives. I believe it has a 1/2" outlet but Im bushing it up to 3/4 for the return. Is this a good idea or a waste of time?

Ben

Sea6 · #15 05/05/2005, 07:08 PM

I put the siphon hole just above the water line so I could see the stream coming out of it and can tell if it needs some cleaning. Has worked for the past three years. I did the same thing on my freshwater too.

adams0816 · #16 05/05/2005, 11:12 PM

put the sihon hole just low enough so it doesnt overfill your sump, for instance mine is about even with my overfill so when the overfill fills up my sump,thats all it going to get. on mine thats about 6 gal. of water. I have the line made out so I dont over top off my sump also. For your question on the mag 7 it takes a 3/4 threaded pipe end,the inner diameter is 1/2 " though

adams0816 · #17 05/05/2005, 11:13 PM

1" is the optimal hose size.

beyondbeatlust · #18 05/05/2005, 11:23 PM

1" ID? sorry..

Clown-N-Around · #19 05/05/2005, 11:48 PM

I used 3/4 for my whole sump return because that is what I started with. I would ask Del or someone else who is a plumbing master about how much your flow is reduced by friction when you use smaller pipes. I just know that it is reduced, so straight lines (as much as possible) and bigger pipes mean you keep more of your GPH that you are getting from your pump.

tgillespie · #20 05/05/2005, 11:54 PM

I have been setting up my overflow and managed to produce a power failure safe setup. The previous owner drilled a small hole in the return pipe about a half inch above the water line, so I didn't have to do anything there. I was having a problem with the U Tube not keeping a siphon and had to drill a hole in the top of the tube from which I then connected to a PH using a small air hose. After buying a new U Tube from the LFS, I have tested a power outage twice and the new tube retained the siphon for some reason.

Anyway, good luck with it. My very first concern with setting it up was over flowing my sump or display. Now all is good.

I also use 3/4 tubing for the return. Its ran on a Rio, which I might upgrade in a while, but seems to do fine now.

Mr.Lizard · #21 05/06/2005, 09:43 AM

Increasing pipe size will improve flow, but only to a point- soon you'll be fighting the weight and inertia of the greater volume of water and lose any advantage gained by the larger diameter; based on the same size pump. I forget the wording exactly of the rules of thumb- there are plenty of sources for the correct theories and all online. At OJ we ran some systems with 12" pipe and LOTS of rise (Increased head pressure) but we were using pumps with impellers that delivered 700 GPM, too- even with the head! I remember reading somewhere on one of these sites about the differences in 3/4" and 1"....they were actually fairly similar for the 'normal' aquarium- it didn't make a whole lot of difference as I recall- but don't quote me....It's been a while and I'm talking off the top of my head. (pun intended) Or would that be talking out of my....LOL- Probably....

Deeparchae · #22 05/06/2005, 10:07 AM

Just for kicks here is the formula for gallons per minute for vertical pipe discharge.
GPM = the squareroot of the height in inches X the diameter in inches of the pipe (squared) X 0.87 ( linear adjustment for pipe diameter) X 5.68 (constant)._ at least that's what my handy dandy little book of geek facts indicates.

adams0816 · #23 05/06/2005, 02:33 PM

sorry,I missed on the mag 7 its 1/2 pipe thread

marwes · #24 05/11/2005, 11:21 PM

OK, I will have to stand up and admit it too, I"M A FLOODER!! Now that I feel better, let me tell my story. Last week on my day off, I was out running errands. My wife calls me on my cell and in passing says that the power went off for about 45 minutes. It never occurred to her. Of course to a reefer that's the first thing that hit my mind. I casually asked her if she happened to check the sump in the basement. Well, you all know the rest. I spent the rest of the day off sucking up water.
I was going to put in a backflow valve, but I'm thrilled to hear the quick fix with the hole drilled.
Thanks everyone!

Signed: Flood Club Anonymous

Stormbringer22 · #25 05/12/2005, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bovetek
Could somebody please post a pic of their return outlet. I'm still waiting (lost in transit) for the Mag7 I ordered, but would like everthing ready to go when it finally arrives. I believe it has a 1/2" outlet but Im bushing it up to 3/4 for the return. Is this a good idea or a waste of time?

Ben

I drilled the anti siphon holes (1/4") at about 1/2" under the water surface...

This is a few weeks after setting the system up, the 2 SQWD wavemakers have worked perfectly & the anti siphon method has worked flawlessly.... Of coarse, a year and a half later has taken that "crisp" new look away!