Large tank project Advice

[Herpervet]

560 gallon (6ft X 5ft X 30in) for SPS/ lots of diversity
A single large external overflow with four 3in. bulk heads.
Stand 36" high.
Starfire glass (Inter american)

Sump will be approximately 270 gallons (56" X 56" X 20" high)and a portion will be a section for a Eco-system style mud filter although don't think I will use their mud.

Giessman lighting 6 X 250 watt HQI and pc actinics unless you guys can talk me out of it. ($$$)



Note that the tank is viewed from 3 sides. Two sides being 6ft and 5 ft and the other is only half visible approximately 3 ft.

I am thinking about having a peninsula that starts near the back corner (the right hand side corner) and extends out so that it can be viewed from 3 sides.

Should I just paint the short wall near the filter room and half of the wall that is adjacent to the Men's Room?

Anyway the bigger issues are regarding circulation/filtration:

I would like to run one large pump for my protein skimmer(s), chiller and surge tanks.

I need about 1100 gph to EACH Surge tank at a a total heigth of 13 feet (the base of the surger will be at 9 ft and the top water heigth is 13 feet.) These will be located on a scaffold over head in the filter room.

In addition I will need to supply a flow comparable to two Iwaki 70 or Iwaki 100 RLT. to run two large protein skimmers. (based on Precision marine Bullet XL's or MRC MR 4 or 6 specs)

I will be using some sort of manifold system to split the flow and so I need help to account for the losses from friction (from splitting off several times).

I will also need a separate pump for the closed loops. ( I want to run one closed loop with 3 to 4 inlets and 3 to 4 outlets instead of 3 or 4 separate closed loops.

I need suggestions regarding pump selection and filter room use. ELECTRICAL layout etc. I have already decided on a floor drain in the filter room and it will have a water source for my RO/DI unit.

Any and all suggesitons or ideas are appreciated.

[1234]

Pumps - go with the Sequence series - maybe the 1000 or the power series



Model Name ....7400PWR55 .....8400PWR64.......... 9000PWR77
Application External Pump External Pump External Pump
Flow Rate ... 2000 - 7000 G.P.H... 2500 - 8000 G.P.H.. 3000 - 8500

Max Head 55' 64' 77'
Max Watts/Amps 1196/5.2 .........172/6.4....................... 2930/9.1
H.P. ............1 HP..........................1.5 HP....................... 2 HP
Price............ $310.95................... $344.95................... $379.95
SPECIAL ....... $264.99 ................ $309.99.............. $349.95

[KenT]

I have a mixed reef, 535 gal, 96x40x32. 5' deep is a very deep, but since you are 3 sided viewing I guess that it fine. I have found that the trend towards massive circulation may not be necessary.

My return pump is an Ampmaster 5600, 4500 gph@11' head.
Closed loop is an Ampmaster 3000
I have 1 maxijet 1200 blowing across the back of the tank.

I do have 2 Tunze stream 6100, but my tank is heavily stocked, and even at the lowest setting, they are too much. The corals blow over, or do not open.

If you want flow, I recommend the Streams or power heads over closed loops. If you are like me, I change the aquascaping every 2 months or so, so I need to change the direction of water flow. It is hard to do this with a closed loop.

For lighting I have 6 400 w halides. I used to have 250s, and I don't see any difference in coral growth or color after switching to the 400s. So 250s are fine.

My skimmer is an Aerofoamer 848 using an Iwaki 100 through a venturi. I used to push it with 2 Iwaki 100s in diff. combinations. 1 for the venturi, and 1 for additional flow. Then 1 pump for the venturi, and 1 for a beckett. I have settled for 1 pump through the venturi.

I have 175 gallons in 2 sumps. Both contain live rocks, 1 is lit with 175w 5500k halide.

Also, I am not running a calcium reactor.

That is my set up and my tank is doing very well.

I believe in K-I-S-S, Keep It Simple Stupid

[1234]

If you want flow, I recommend the Streams or power heads over closed loops. If you are like me, I change the aquascaping every 2 months or so, so I need to change the direction of water flow. It is hard to do this with a closed loop.


Not if you have loc-line installed, and if the inlet to the CL is near the mid-level. PH's are an eye sore but that's JMO, streams are $$$$. The cost of the streams w/controller, you can buy several pumps.

You want circulation in the tank - maybe not 30x's but non the less some circulation.

[ShipMate]

One pump is ok but i have always thought that redundancy is important in such large systems. So 2 pumps might be best in case of failure imo. Sequence pumps are excellent by all accounts.
So are Iwakis (Japanese version).

It is very important to have dedicated circuits for the pumps. I had an electrician install separate ones for the circulating pumps (closed loops), return pumps and lighting. This thinking has paid off already a couple of times. GFCI everything.

What type of Surges are thinking of using? Sounds interesting.

[ShipMate]

Also you should check with Steveweast. If you have not already seen his tank
http://twize.com/reef/steveweast.html

[Harleyguy]

Originally posted by ShipMate
Also you should check with Steveweast. If you have not already seen his tank
http://twize.com/reef/steveweast.html

WOW That is amazing.

[L98-Z]

Originally posted by ShipMate
Also you should check with Steveweast. If you have not already seen his tank
http://twize.com/reef/steveweast.html

In the photo:






Are those not Heniochus Black & White Butterflyfish?

Which are not supposed to be reef safe?

[Herpervet]

Shipmate: I am thinking of a modified Carlson surge device.

This one is a sealed system so it cuts down on noise (at least thats the idea).

I plan on using 55 gallon heavy duty drums or perhaps one 55gallon and one 35 gallon to vary the surge.

Here is the design I am considering:

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...ionSystem.html

I am also trying to decide if I am going to use tubular sky lights or go with the HQI's.

I may flip flop the tank and the filter room so that the tank is adjacent to the outside wall. This wall faces west.

I can then have the tank sitting directly in a window for exposure to the afternoon rays. An overhead set of skylights might then complete the system nicely.

The problem is that this is going in our Veterinary Emergency Hospital and a natural light set-up means that a lot of our clients will come in and the tank will be dark.

Since we are ALWAYS open at night (365 days a year) the inhabitants will always have some relatively un-natural lighting situations since the waiting room will always have overhead lights on. I am afraid the lack of a good dark cycle will be detrimental.

I absolutely love the concept of natural light but I can't really resolve this issue in my mind.

My only other option is to go with a completely reverse light cycle and use some kind of blinds or shades to darken the tank during the day since we are closed during the week days and open at 6pm.

Perhaps I can use infra red night time lighting as is used in nocturnal Zoo exhibits. Most folks have seen them in the bat exhibits for example. Have any of you seen a "red light" used over a tank at night?


Steveweast's tank is in Mike Paletta's book isn't it? The plumbing looks very familiar.

Awsome tank.

[Herpervet]

L98-Z. Yes they look like H. acuminatus. The dealer only calls them butterfly fish because they resemble the Chaetodon genus.

I guess you are asking because the dealer you found calls them "Not reef safe"

You always have to take those canned recommendations with a grain of salt. I have no experience with keeping these in a reef setting but obviously Steve has!

Then again what works for one guy might be a disaster in another setting depending on multiple variables.

"Poor mans Moorish idol" is another name BTW.

[ShipMate]

Solatubes are nice but will not give you the corals colorations that you see in the above pictures. You would get much more brown and yellow tones IMO. You could always supplement with VHO actinic 03s. This type of set up would work great for soft corals and LPS corals imo. Not so sure for SPS, though...

Check out these links from a fellow australian reefer who runs a solatube tank if you have not already:

http://home.iprimus.com.au/jmfaz/index.htm
http://home.iprimus.com.au/aurorabridal/massa.htm
http://home.iprimus.com.au/aurorabridal/Doc1.htm


Nothing wrong with a reverse lighting cycle either. There are many who light their tanks until late at night in order to be able to enjoy them after work.

Dont forget about easy access to all sides of the tank if you can...very important.

[firemouth4416]

Just an idea to make things simpler. Instead of surge tanks take a look at Oceansmotions.com He has a nice gizmo that will replace a surge system and probly lower maintenance.
Good luck sound like a fun project. Want to test it out in my basement?

[nbd13]

HEY I WOULD WAIT TILL THE 400W DE pendants come out, happyreefing.com has them just not on his site yet just call him!

for that depth if you want clams and SPS on the bottom go with 400w DE's!

Nick

[Mr.Lloyd]

I second the Oceans Motions.MY 4 Way has a 2" input and four 1-1/2"outlets.I would recommend you run as muck 220 volt equipment as possible to save on electricty.Icecap makes ballasts in 220v for 250's and 400's.Most German bulbs were designed to run the higher volts.Your chiller will need to big enough that models in 220v will be available.I think Dolphin pumps are putting out a 220v Ampmaster.Spears makes black PVC fittings that your local plumbing supply can order.I have a black back wall and white PVC would not look near as nice as the black fittings.I would also go with enough pumps to provide for backup vs one giant pump.I have 2 closed loops and a motor failed Sunday but I still have good cirrculation with 1 loop.With a controller you do not have to run them both at the same time all the time.Good luck in working out the details.

[Mr.Lloyd]

Much 220 vs muck.Glad I do not type for a living.

[VegasMike]

I may have missed something, but it would be easier to know what you want to keep. My suggestions are based on the assumption that the tank will be primarily SPS, in which case circulation is very important.

First off, I would go BB with the starboard on the bottom. That is one thing I did not do that I wished I had. You can see my tank in the Large Tank Forum under "450 Progress" and more recent pics of the inhabitants in more a recent thread I started.

Closed loops and Tunzes both have their place in my opinion. My tank is 450 gallons, 96"x36"x32". I use two Sequence 4600's, one for a closed loop and one for a return pump from the sump. I probably would have gone smaller on the return pump and larger on the CL in retrospect, but I will remedy that if these pumps ever fail. They are very good pumps with low electrical draw and very quiet. The CL returns exclusively behind the rockwork and sweeps any detritus out of the rockwork to be removed by the skimmer. The rest of the tank flow is provided by the four 3/4" centipede returns from the sump and two Tunze 6100's. On a tank this large, the Tunzes are really lost in the corners. They create some great changing flow if used with the Multicontroller. I am considering adding two more to the tank once some of my SPS grow in a bit and I may upsize to the 6200's which are no bigger physically.

As for lighting, I use eight 250watt DE ROIII fixtures run by Icecap e-ballasts. I alternate between 10000k and 20000k. I have no problems with SPS or clams on the sand bed. You just have to be careful which SPS you put where. My cerealis frags actually do better on the sand bed colorwise than they do up high. IMO, these are the way to go even though the new 400DE has me curious. I don't want the electrical consumption or the heat.

As for skimmers, do yourself a favor and don't skimp. Look at Deltec, Schuran and RK2. These are much nicer, more capable skimmers with features like automatic wash down. My MR-4 literally needs cleaned every few days and that is very annoying, especially since I don't get much skimate. It all seems to stick to the edges in a very thick coating, like 1 cm thick after a week. Now, that being said, a stronger pump may fix this problem.

I would rather go with the Tunze option than the surge option, it just seems to be easier, but good luck with it.

Oh yea, one last thing. If you are going with IA, be prepared for delays and after your quoted date from Mitch, ask for Neal or Adrian to get a more accurate status. Do not plan for tank placement until you get a waybill number and confirm it with the shipping company and actually see it moving on their site. I love the powdercoated stand that Mitch built for me. I had him make the stand with a 96"x48" footprint (tank is 96"x36") so that I have a catwalk across the back. That was one of the best things I did.

Good luck and have fun with it.

Mike

[Herpervet]

Thanks for the input guys. I ran across the Oceans- motion device a while back. Looks like a nice design and I have seriously considered using it. For now I am going with the surge approach but that is still open. I am most interested in minimizing moving parts and anything that might need replacement in the future.

Thanks for the catwalk idea Mike, that is definately going to be a part of the plan.

The 400W HQI's-are interesting but I have seen lots of tanks at this depth run on 250's HQI's and they look great (see Sanjay's explaination) but I am leaning more toward a natural lighting approach anyway.

I am not convinced that natural lighting will not give an effect that I will be happy with.. If poor coloration is a problem I can always cover the skylight and go with a conventional approach or find a way to supplement which is what I would prefer to plan on from the start.

What I want is the best of both worlds and the HUGE savings in electricity not to mention the cost of bulb replacement.

The latest development involves using a unique tracking system for the skylight.

http://www.daylighting.com/active_daylighting.htm

They measure 4' X4' so that lead me to a modification of the tank plan. Now it will be 7'6" X 4' X 30". (7'6" is the max length for our space and odd that the volume comes out to within a gallon! )

This will allow two of the skylights and hopefully a MASSIVE amount of light.

I am leaning toward the idea flip floping the tank and filter room like I mentioned before so I can get max sun exposure and with opening the window, direct UN-FILTERED sunlight.

This should really benefit since most if not all UV is filtered by glass.

Now the only issue is how to design th system so that I can supplement some actinic light without a shadow problem.

With conventional tublular skylights you can mount a light in the cylinder with relatively little shadow because the light is bouncing off the edges but with this system the traking sytem will probably lead to a shadow since a lot of the light is reflected directly down and doesn't bounce off the sides of the light well. I plan on discussing this with the skylight manufacturer.

Perhaps we can mount a socket and bulb alone without even a pendant fixture. This will lead to a significant loss in light BUT very little or no shadow.

I am thinking 2 pendants/bulbs mounted in each light well with 20K halides would be a good choice. Any thoughts on this? Now what would be truely ideal would be a pure actinic metal halide bulb! Anyone heard of such a beast?

[Herpervet]

Here is a photo of the tracking system guts.

http://www.daylighting.com/images/ABCO%20ROOF.htm

Pretty cool huh?

[L98-Z]

Originally posted by Mr.Lloyd
I would recommend you run as muck 220 volt equipment as possible to save on electricty.

How does that save on electricty? The electric bill is done in watts which is Amps x Volts. Whenever you double the voltage (220) you half the Amps. That's really the only purpose of 220 and so on is to reduce the Amps which means higher gauge wire and such.

Atleast that's my understanding on it.

[Mr.Lloyd]

You get a bit more efficiency with 220v.Check out the specs on Icecap web site and compared the amp draw with 220 vs 110.Most electric stoves,clothes dryers and hot water heaters are 220v.There is a reason.I am not an electrical whiz but my limited understanding is 220 is cheaper to run than 110.

[L98-Z]

Originally posted by Mr.Lloyd
You get a bit more efficiency with 220v.Check out the specs on Icecap web site and compared the amp draw with 220 vs 110.Most electric stoves,clothes dryers and hot water heaters are 220v.There is a reason.I am not an electrical whiz but my limited understanding is 220 is cheaper to run than 110.

Hmmm, I was under the assumption that because those items pull more current, they need the extra voltage to lower the amperes to avoid issues or extremly large capables. More amps = lower gauge wire. Like battery cables on a car being 2-4 gauge.

I also want to say that someone did a comparison on the 220 Icecap and it was bascially the equilivent in terms of watt per amp and such. The 220 with slightly less amp draw was also slightly weaker than it's 110v counterpart.

We do need an electrican to drop in on this thread and correct us.

[Scuba_Dave]

The lower the gauge wire, the bigger the wire is
14 gauge
12 gauge is thicker
2-4 gauge really thick

so you use lower gauge wire with more volts, not higher gauge
but some people may consider going from 14 gauge to - 2 gauge as going higher since the wire is thicker
depends upon your point of view

[L98-Z]

Originally posted by Scuba_Dave
The lower the gauge wire, the bigger the wire is
14 gauge
12 gauge is thicker
2-4 gauge really thick

so you use lower gauge wire with more volts, not higher gauge
but some people may consider going from 14 gauge to - 2 gauge as going higher since the wire is thicker
depends upon your point of view

I know how to determine wire gauge, and understand how they are numbered, so I'm assuming that wasn't directed towards me.

However, I believe it should be lower gauge wire is required with more amperes, not volts. Afterall, as I used above with the car battery example, you are running 2-4 gauge wire at only 12v, while your normal housewire is probably closer to 10-14gauge yet it's running 120v. The different is a battery runs 400-800 amperes while your average household item is usually less than 25 amperes.

[ShipMate]

One potential problem about the 'Daylight' tracking system on a reeftank might be some condensation and need to clean the dome and reflectors periodically. That could prove to be a pain if you do not have easy access...

[Herpervet]

The dome will be easy to access. The system is sealed so there shouldn't be any need to clean the tracking system.