fish to stay in a QT

[seaofdunes]

Hi, i might be ready to set my qt back up to add new fishies. I wanted to know, since i don't want to risk an expensive, delicate fish from cycling a new tank while its in the QT, if there would be a good fish to just stay there all the time as well as cycle the tank. If i ever do put any LR in there, it will be slim to none. It is a 30 long. I am looking for an attractive small fish, that won't get too aggresive from newcomers in his home. And it can't be that expensive either. I was advised by the lfs to use a yellowtail damsel or a false perc. Any other ideas or comments?

[swims withthe fishes]

my first comment is not to cycle it with any fish, cycle it with a cocktail shrimp. as far as a fish to keep in it all the time, i kept a pair of chromis in the QT at work to keep its biological going, they're attractive little fish, and peaceful.

[seaofdunes]

how does the cocktail shrimp method work anyways? I looked for info but only found people saying to do it.

[Aframomum]

Hi there,

Not to be mean, but how much of the cycling process do you understand?

Bacteria populations need "food" to live and grow. (Don't know the extent of your chemistry understanding, so I'll go slow ) Bacteria can use sources of nitrogen (such as ammonia and nitrite) for energy. The main way they can get this is from the breaking down of organic material (fish waste or decomposing tissue). Over time the bacteria populations reach an equilibrium and are able to process the amount of nitrogenous waste being produced by a system (the tank and all its inhabitants). This equilibrium takes time, so that is why patience is needed.

Mark

[seaofdunes]

i am not that dumb, though i appreciate you trying to explain it to me. I do understand the nitrogen cycle, and i know that waste or decaying matter needs to be broken down by bacteria at some point or another. What i was asking was how do you go about replacing fish with a dead shrimp? How much of a shrimp is required? There will be no substrate in this tank, so will the bacteria be able to grow fairly quickly or would it be better to add some dead rock? Does the shrimp ever need to be replaced? Would mixing some water from my main tank with the QT water be detrimental or helpful? Those kinds of questions.

[LX302]

One frozen cocktail thrown into the tank to provide the ammonia source. Be ready to remove in a week, might get real nasty smelling.
Since your going bare bottom, you need a place for the bacteria to live and grow. Are you using a power filter or canaster filter on the tank? If you are, just using the sponge or pad of the filter will make a good breeding ground for the nitrtifying bacteria.
Yes you can mix water from your main tank. It might not have much bacteria or benefits, but it would never hurt.

Now that my tank is fully stocked, I wanted to keep the QT going with another colorful fish in it and was deciding on which one I wanted to go with. Damsels are colorful, but can be aggressive, I already have Chromis in my main tank, so maybe a goby or a clownfish. HTH

[seaofdunes]

if the shrimp is removed after a week, what will provide the continued food for the bacterias? Would rock work the same as a sponge? I am running a Whisper filter, but it only has a bag, not a sponge.

[adam_not4u]

Never even considered putting a dead fish or shrimp in my tank to cycle it. IMO, I like to just use live rock fresh from the ocean. What I mean is I ordered a box or two from an online supplier... they ship it to you in water proof box and there are plenty of things living on it. Alot of them die off thus the starting of the nitrogen cycle. Live will start and finish this cycle from deep within where there is no oxygen. I have about 1 to 1 1/2 lbs of LR per gallon.

[seaofdunes]

but this is for a QT, where there will be no LR in case i need to medicate the tank. I put some peices of dead rock in there, so that there is some form of landscape, and there will be a place for the bacteria to form. But what i still want to know is what will provide food for the ammonia eating bacteria once the shrimp is removed? I am assuming this is nowhere near long enough to complete the cycle.

Update (in the QT now)
30 gal saltwater
15w light
75 w heater
150 w heater
Maxi-jet 600 powerhead
Whisper I filter with sponge and filter bag

I need to know where to go from when i am ready to remove the shrimp

[discusone]

Maybe i can help,think of your Q-tank as small main tank.Once the bacteria are established,they only need a small source of food.A small amount of chopped clam or mussel added once a week will keep the bacteria going,although their population will go down.Also,my Q-tank has a thin layer of crushed coral on the bottom.This is two-fold.Fish seem to be appreciate it.Barebottomed tanks seem to make some fish skittish( tangs and butterflys especially).It also provides a place for bacteria to grow.

When you Q-teen the new fish,feed very small meals,twice a day.The bacteria present in the tank will grow,as nutriants are increased as a result of your small meals and the metobolic wastes produced from the fish.I make 5 gal water changes every two days.Just my prefrence,i use hyposalinity treatment exclusivley now.Being a butterfly fan,i find medications a sure way to kill them quickly.Anything i left out,ill try to explain in greater detail if you wish.

[seaofdunes]

so, replacing the food once a week would do well. Ok. The reason i was going without substrate is because that is where the parasites attach to (ich, as far as i know). Also, because it is very difficult to remove the substrate once it is in there. I was under the impression that by using 15. of rock, i could harvest the same bacteria populations, but they can easily be removed. Am i missing something or wrong?

[seaofdunes]

also, can i use the freeze dried krill to start the cycle or would something fresher be more useful (kosher house except for the fish tank). Would a peice of fish flesh work just as well (when we buy fish for dinner, i just throw a chunk in)?

[RARZILLO]

The more fish you add the more population of good bacteria you will need to compensate for your amount of fish in the tank.
adding shrimp is good. then add one fish at a time
the time it takes for bacteria to grow to compensate for a QT full of fish is the unknown I feel.

Do not use sand......so ich cysts can be removed.
do not use any rock......use different size pvc sections.
more power heads for good surface aeration Adding one fish at a time will help. watch ammonia and nitrites in your QT daily
Be ready with aerated and heated water.
over the course of four days lower salinity from 1.025 to 1.009 still watching parameters daily. be ready for water change
wait six weeks = NO ICH

but quarantine everything wet whenever you add livestock to tank

[seaofdunes]

will the PVC harvest bacteria like the rock? Both can be removed, so what is the difference?

[swims withthe fishes]

pvc will harvest the bacteria just the same,bacteria will attach to nearly any surface. the PVC is better because it can easily be cleaned and or replaced if need be. the cysts can also find their way deep into the rock where you cant clean them out.

[ATJ]

The main reason you want to avoid sand, live rock or any other calcareous material in the quarantine tank is so you are able to medicate with copper if required - for example if the fish are infected with Amyloodinium.

Cysts attaching to the sand or live rock is not an issue because you will either be treating the tank with hyposalinity - which will result in the death of all the cysts - or because you can leave the tank empty for six weeks which will result in the death of all the parasites.

While any surface can host bacteria, the greater the surface area the greater the populations of bacteria possible. Something like a sponge filter has quite a large surface area. Another alternative is bioballs in a canister filter.

[seaofdunes]

but i can't imagine the PVC pipe would do alot for that. So, i f i was already going to be removing the rock to treat, what harm could it do to remove only when treating is needed? It isn't live rock. And i don't intend on treating a healthy fish (only one that shows signs of infection). There is a sponge filter in my whisper filter, and a canister is out of the question. If what i was putting in would be only bare substrate and the filter, when medicationg, what harm would it do to leave the rock in there otherwise? Is there not going to be a mini-cycle when the fish is added? I can't imagine there being much to cycle with no substrate or rock. Would taking the rock out cause a backwards cycle (if there is a such thng)? Can't the cysts attach themselves to the PVC pipe as well?

[ATJ]

You need to have some kind of permanent biological filter that will not react with any medications. Live rock - even if it has no invertebrates is not compatible with copper. The reason you need it there is it is supporting your population of bacteria. If you remove it to medicate the tank, you remove your biological filter and you may as well have not had it there in the first place.

If you want to use live rock as your biological filter, just know that you won't be able to treat with copper.

I think maybe you misunderstand what the "cycle" actually is. The "cycle" is the period (usually at the start of a new tank) where the bacteria populations are growing to levels that they can process all the ammonia produced by the inhabitants' waste. While bacteria can reproduce rapidly, it takes some some to reach an equilibrium with the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

For the "cycle" to occur you need bacteria - never a problem because the bacteria are absolutely everywhere - sufficient surface area for the bacteria to colonise and appropriate levels of ammonia and nitrite to feed the bacteria. If you don't provide sufficient surface area, the populations will be insufficient to cope with the load of fish.

Cryptocaryon cysts can attach to just about any hard surface: glass, PVC, live rock, sand, etc.

[JHardman]

Being a person that does a fair amount of QT'ing of fish...

Here is my $0.02

You do not need to worry about cycling a QT tank. It kind of defeats the purpose of a QT tank that is only setup and running while you QT the any new fish for a period of 4-6 weeks otherwise it should be dry (for the reasons ATJ mentioned already). If you are ready to go, with the method I describe below, you can set up a QT tank in less than 30 minutes.

Here is what I do.

I have separate QT equipment, tanks, heaters, air stones, etc. Anything used in a QT tank, is never used for anything else. I keep several air driven foam filters in a sump of an established system. When I do not have fish in QT all of the equipment is dry, with the exception of the foam filters in the sump.

So you get some new fish, you fill the QT tank with water from your main system (call it a water change), put an established foam filter in the tank along with all the other QT equipment. I use terracotta pots for cover, PVC fittings work nicely too, but get expensive for the larger 4�+ sizes.

The established foam filter will handle the bio load. If you do end up treating something in the tank with something that will wipe out the foam filter, no big deal. You control water pollutants with water changes and add a new established foam filter to finish the QT after you are done treating for any diseases or parasites.

When you are done, toss the terracotta pot/PVC fittings, after all they tend to cost less than $0.50 each. Drain the QT tank, ring out the foam filter and let it all sit dry for 6-8 weeks. You can let the foam filter sit dry or just throw it in the garbage, they are cheap after all. Replenish any foam filters you used and toss the ones you used back in the sump after 6-8 weeks of being dry if you didn't just throw them out. Personally I never allow something from QT into a primary system, so I just toss them.

You will need to run the foam filter in an established system for 6-8 weeks to fully establish it. You can use it sooner if need be, but be forewarned that it might not keep up with the bio load.

Another very handy QT item is an ammonia alert badge which can be picked up at just about any LFS, PetCo, Petsmart, etc. As soon as you see a color change, it time to do a water change. They are relatively cheap and pretty accurate to boot.

[ATJ]

Out of interest, why do you discard the PVC/Terracotta pieces? Why do you let the foam sit dry for 6-8 weeks?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ATJ
Out of interest, why do you discard the PVC/Terracotta pieces? Why do you let the foam sit dry for 6-8 weeks?

They are cheap and more importantly easily confused for production pieces. I use terracotta pots for my pairs to host in/spawn in and PVC fittings for cover in grow out tanks. With the value of the fish involved, I simply can not afford to risk the pairs and offspring over something that costs less than $1.

I generally do not let the foam filter sit dry, I toss it. This is for the same reason I recommended to let it sit dry if one was uncomfortable tossing it, the possible cross contamination issues.

Originally posted by ATJ
Cryptocaryon cysts can attach to just about any hard surface: glass, PVC, live rock, sand, etc.

Originally posted by ATJ
Cysts attaching to the sand or live rock is not an issue because you will either be treating the tank with hyposalinity - which will result in the death of all the cysts - or because you can leave the tank empty for six weeks which will result in the death of all the parasites.

[seaofdunes]

thanks for the advice. My question is this, as my tank is already in it's fourth day of cycling. If don't mind having a permanent QT setup until i am finished stocking, is there a need to do anything beyond the cycling process i am doing now? Would adding some water from the main tank help at this point? I believe you all are telling me to take the rock out (this rock will only be used for the QT and is not alive). What i don't understand is why i should put in PVC pipe if the parasites can attach to either. What is the difference?

[ATJ]

If you ever need to treat with copper, the rock (calcium carbonate) will absorb copper and the PVC won't. When the rock absorbs the copper, not only will it make it difficult to maintain the right concentration of copper, but a drop in pH could result in the rock dumping the copper back into the water can killing everything.

If you remove it at the time of treatment, you'll lose your biological filter.

[seaofdunes]

ok, removing rock now. Will the sponge in the whisper filter be enough combined with some PVC pipe?