Household Humidity Concerns from 400 Gals or so...

[roguemonk]

I have about 400 gallons in my system. At any given moment I'd guess that around 100 gallons are flowing through tubs in my crawlspace (lots of surface area!), and the rest is in three interconnected sumps and three interconnected tanks in the basement and my family room one level up--directly above the crawlspace.

Last winter for the first time I noticed some flexing in our wooden french doors and my wife has picked up on some mold/mildew from condensation around some of the doors and windows. I think part of the problem is insulation, but she thinks we have problematically high humidity due to the aquarium setup. I've ordered a humidity meter to do spot-checks, but my weather center one floor up from the family room (top floor of the house) says the humidity today is 41%, which it classifies as "dry."

I read that 40% - 60% is desirable, and it may be that our whole-house humidifier (which I never have to use any more!) just never got our humidity up to that comfort level before, and so last winter things started to adjust to the "better" air.

I'm thinking that, if the general humidity is not at a problematic level, improving the insulation and running fans where I can't solve it might be the only long-term solutions (small humidifiers in the corners might help but that seems like a losing battle).

While I wait for the meter to arrive I wonder if anyone has thoughts about this kind of problem with massive aquaria in an otherwise dry climate like ours?

Thanks,

Brad

[artful-dodger]

All of my tanks are in the basement (not great air movement) and I had to install a dehumidifier that pulls a gallon or two out of the air every day when set on "normal" (as opposed to "dry"). I quickly tired of emptying the collection reservoir and ran a drain hose to the floor drain.

Wall and ceiling insulation need to have a vapor barrier on the living area side to perform optimally. Most homes in this area seem to have just the kraft paper from rolled insulation (at most).

[oscar89]

I have my sumps in the furance room to take advantage of the fresh air intakes for furnaces on newer houses. You may want to think about a dehumidifier (as artful-dodger did), or venting your crawl space to allow fresh air to enter.

[reefkoi]

I didnt vent my 600 in the basement out when first installed and it was really bad in the house, we couldnt sleep at night from the humidity and it smelled of ocean.
Imagine that effect going on under your house. I can't see it being good, I now have 2-4" vent pipes with fans exhausting the mech room and the canopy outside.

[roguemonk]

My basement is served at the furnace by a fresh-air intake, so I think there's plenty of fresh air. I'll spot-check the basement for high humidity, but there is no discomfort from humidity and the only odor is when my system doses algae with garlic in suspension (that's noticeable for a few minutes if you're near the tank or in the basement).

Is 41% too high? 60%? Where's the cutoff where it starts to be damaging?

Thanks,

Brad

[reefkoi]

I don't know at what level the damage starts. I had a bunch of books on a shelf near the tank and they are all curled up and ruined............I think saltwater humidity is worse possibly? I don't know I'm no expert.
C

[Dave & Monica]

I see your point rougemonk in that 40% doesn’t seem all that bad. Spot checking where you see the mold or condensation is a good idea. Air movement, even with a fan, would be worth a try. If you go the de-humidifier route, I'd be curious how much water you pull out. Good luck at any rate.
- dave

[artful-dodger]

Another question of curiosity. How much total top-off water do you go through each day? Has that changed with the change in seasons?

[tkeracer619]

I run an 8 GPD dehimidifier and air the house out any chance I get.

I try to keep it in the 35-40 range.

[roguemonk]

I don't really measure the topoff: it's totally automated. I'd guess it's several gallons per day.

Thanks,

Brad

[bmb527]

Interesting topic. I never gave it a second thought. Even after 2 years in Louisiana and 75-100% humidity, I have never found it to be an issue. As for mold/mildew in the house, repaint, after a stain blocking, oil based primer, using a high quality paint such as Sherwin Williams and add the fungicide to the paint. It will make a difference.
The humidity only causes problems with doors and such when it fluctuates wildly. Keep it steady and everything will balance out.

[roguemonk]

I presume the doors were adjusting to the new level last year, which I don't guess is still fluctuating much except at the change of season. If I have high enough humidity to cause problems with mold that can't be controlled by other means I plan to invest in one or more dehumidifiers.

Thanks,

Brad

[aqua_obs]

any more details on the fungicide to add to the paint? Just any fungicide? I have mildew problems.. dang.. Mostly in cold spots in my house or on windows where they sweat... I've got about 300 gallons of tanks/water in my house.

[bmb527]

The fungicide is an additive that you can buy at PROFESSIONAL paint supply shops such as Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore, Pittsburgh Paints etc. I prefer to do business with them for paint over Lowes and Home Depot, which are more like the Wal-Mart for building supplies. You just mix it in the paint and it inhibits mold/mildew growth. I have to go to S.W. to get some drywall mud and I will see what the stuff is called and post later.
While living in Louisiana we learned that the big key in mold/mildew control seems to be air circulation. I don't know why, the air is still more humid than you can ever make it in your house here in CO, but, it seemed to keep mold at bay. The only place we had mold problems seemed to be in places with no air flow, like closets.
Bill

[tkeracer619]

If I could figure out how to mount these in vertical split windows I would probably buy one and maybe another if it worked well. I havent actually used one of these but have shopped a lot more expensive versions.

Since the air is so dry here these small units might do the trick. I would get one to try out but my windows won't accept it.

http://www.bionaire.com/everfresh.aspx

[joegeologist]

Interesting discussion, but you're overlooking the effect of mold on the value of your house.

I just finished selling a home in this bear housing market (took 9 months). With so many houses to choose from, people walk away at the slightest negative. We had people walk away because our 8 mrem of radon (average for Denver) was mitigated down to 1 (only a quarter of the EPA suggested value) they wanted it to be below 4 naturally without mitigation!

My point is-- mold is the new asbestos/radon paranoia of the 2000s in Denver. Our radon mitigation contractors said that they are getting a lot of work mitigating mold in this bear housing market. One said it is most prevalent in unventilated crawl spaces (the lower the crawl space the worse). Mildew is one thing, but I would suggest people not let mold get started. Certainly don't put a sump/refugium in an unventilated crawl space. A painted ceiling and joists in an "unfinished" 3 foot crawl space will shout mold to the buyer's home inspector, and if you can't prove that what you mitigated it with meets code, you will have to do it again (so save your receipts and labels).

I paid two contractors to mitigate my radon. The first one did it with the wrong wall thickness pipe, the second one did it with the right schedule pipe after we moved out. Sure I got my money back from the first guy, but it delayed the closing by 1 month.

($300,000 x 7% /12) you do the math, thats a lot of frags.

[::PixelFish::]

My tank here in Longmont has actually been a blessing because it ads some moisture to the air. It's so dry here and we are suffering pretty badly from dry sinusses. It's going to take us a while to get used to.

When we lived in WA though, we did have mildew problems and our hvac guy told us to leave a window open all year round. Apparently newer homes are built too well so you don't have the natural drafts and air escaping like you would in older homes. We seal all the moisture and bad air in so we must do something to better vent the old humid air out.

I cleaned everything with bleach and did a better job with venting the air around the tank. It worked pretty well. Thankfully we moved from a great market(house sold in one week) to a crappy market and we could be picky about radon mitigation/mold/mildew like joegeologist said.

[aqua_obs]

I definitely have mold or mildew growing and it got into the wood on the window frames.. I tried sanding it out and there are still stains... I didn't want to paint them, but I guess I'll have to so he stains are covered.

Would you call your radon company again and if so, can you provide the contact information? I've been cleaning it up with 409 with bleach. Soak it a bit and wipe it off.

From my experience the circulation point is right on the money. Part of my problem is I keep the house cold and the furnace doesn't run much... Behind chairs/corners/book shelves in the quiet part of the house is where it has formed.

Thanks for the help.

[bmb527]

Once you kill the mold with bleach, it has to be SEALED using a primer such as KILZ OIL BASED stain blocking primer. Once primed with oil base primer, let it dry 24 to 48 hours and then finish with a high quality top coat such as Sherwin Williams Superpaint interior latex, or the newest product called Duration. I swear by Superpaint, I have not used the new stuff as I don't do painting for a living any longer. I just looked at the S.W. site, and the super paint and the "bath paint" as well as the Duration all have the mildew inhibitor in the paint already. The key is to make sure it is killed and sealed with a high quality primer before you put a topcoat on. As for resale of your house, as long as it was a very minor issue that was properly dealt with, you don't have to disclose it. It is the same as if you had a bathroom that got too dirty and had some mildew in the shower, you clean it and the issue is gone. Mold is not as common as mildew and it is mildew that is usually the problem. Mold is not a very big issue in Colorado, it happens, but the problem is not as big as it is in more humid areas.
Bill

[joegeologist]

Aqua_obs
pm sent with link to mitigation contractor.

bmb527
I agree with you that bleach, then KILZ, followed with a top coat on a window frame is the right way to do it. Certainly not as noticeable as painting crawl space joists that were never intended to be painted. My observation is still that you shouldn't put a sump or refugium in an unventilated low crawl space.

For what its worth, my wife helped the Forest Service reclaim an historic (1800s) landmark hotel in the Colorado mountains. The recipe they used was a 10% chlorox solution that they sprayed on and let dry to mitigate the mold and mice dropings.

[bmb527]

Also, it is more than likely mildew, not mold. Mildew is much more common and it is also easier to get rid of. If it is something that just started recently, with the addition of a tank or other moisture source, I would guess it is mildew.

[aqua_obs]

Thanks for the help and I hope that helped the concerns of the original post too! I'll print this out for future reference. I hate the thought of painting my wood windows. I should have just gotten plastic at that point... Maybe the paint experts will have a stain/cover that will have a mildew resitance.

THanks again.

[roguemonk]

I'm still tuned in! I think my problem is minor as the only time there is significant condensation is when the outside temperature dips into the single digits and below, and only right around windows and doors. I think I can mitigate with fans but I will measure humidity in all areas when I receive the meter and will take whatever measures are needed (I may post an update at that point in case anyone's interested or has further suggestions once I know more).

Thanks,

Brad

[tkeracer619]

Originally posted by tkeracer619
If I could figure out how to mount these in vertical split windows I would probably buy one and maybe another if it worked well. I havent actually used one of these but have shopped a lot more expensive versions.

Since the air is so dry here these small units might do the trick. I would get one to try out but my windows won't accept it.

http://www.bionaire.com/everfresh.aspx

I did some more digging on these units. Seems they get pretty good ratings. I am going to buy one and see what my humidity does. I'll have to make a custom trim plate to mount it in my window frame....

Anyone want to place bets? 1300sq ft house, 500gallons inside, avg humidity 45% with 8gpd dehumidifier on 24/7. Humidity inside ranges from 30% to mid 60's. (it's 37% outside and 43% inside right now). I don't want to run the dehumidifier 24/7.

I'll keep you posted.

[wstellwagen]

I had a 400 pkus 4 90's plus about 400 sumps in a large basement fish room furnace in another room
One vent in fish room furnace rusted out and vents all over house started to rust.Got rid of 400 and sumps . problem solved.

Walt