Pictures of destruction

[Joy_42]

I've posted about this in the "new to the hobby" forum, but it was suggested that I try here as well.

Long intro:

I have had three healthy zoanthid colonies start to disappear overnight. There were no white or brown spots, no changes in levels, temperature, flow or even new livestock additions; they'd be open and vibrant one day and the next day polyps would be missing.

It took me a while to get the bright idea to look after the lights went out, and when I did, I found the zoa colonies were crawling with pods of all sizes. After some debate, I added a mandarin fish (which I will gladly supplement pods for in the hopes it could save my zoas right now). After about a week there was no improvement, only more deterioration, and I looked again... The remaining pods are too large for my mandarin's mouth but are definitely chowing down on my polyps.



My questions:

1) Many people have told me repeatedly that pods don't eat healthy zoas. Does anyone have experience to the contrary?

2) Has anyone had this problem and found a good solution?

3) If my zoas are sick, what can I do to figure out what's wrong with them other than a visual check? There are no white or brown spots and no signs of stress until the pods move in.

Any suggestions or guidance would be greatly appreciated!

Also: the tank has been up for one year, this problem started 2-3 weeks ago, Ammonia is 0, Nitrites are 0, Nitrates are barely more than 0 (color chart skips from 0- 5.0, water tests closer to 0), pH 8.2, Salinity 1.024.

Thanks,
Joy

[Joy_42]

For reference, here is the grazing (unless they're just sick) moving from left to right:


These used to look like this:


And these guys had almost doubled in numbers, but are now down to three closed polyps and a little stretch of mat:

[thecichlidpleco]

I have had the same thing happen with some of my colonies, but just because I see some pods on them I do not assume they are eating them. I have had colonies go down to nil and others that have flourished. So I do not think they are the reason for destruction. The only thing I have really noticed is that they hang out more often on the ones that are not doing so hot, therefore they may be the cause or just are taken advantage of unhealthy zoas.

[Joy_42]

I will be very, very glad to say that the zoanthids are not being eaten. I just do not know what else to test for or what else to do. They showed no signs of stress and nothing had been added to the tank.

I'm really sorry if it seems like I'm jumping to an incorrect or impossible conclusion, I'm just frustrated because I spend so much time searching for the zoas I like the most, and now nearly all of them have disappeared with seemingly no warning or provocation.

I'm not saying that I didn't cause this, I'm just looking for what's going on. The only visible symptom is the pod congregation.

[delsol650]

Add a wrasse ( Green seagrass, yellow coris, leopard, 6line ) you'll be amazed the ampipod problem dissapears right away in a couple of weeks... then for some reason your zoos start doing better...

A lot of people here say that dosn't happen, but I for 1 and a bunch of people here who'm had there colonies wiped out by larger 1'CM sized ampipods do. Just because it dosn't happen to others mean it dosn't exist.. there are more different species of ampipods out there than the usual fare. out in the wild, there are hunting type pods the group and hunt. From what some experts said, it happens to a very low percentage of tanks... if your one of the unlucky ones, then just get a wrasse...

I my self have converted my tank to a wrasse tank with a mandarin... NO pods / ampipods survive long in this tank.. and ever since loosing several colonies to ampipods eating them at night ( viewed at night with a red light for a couple of weeks ). since converstion of tank, no more loosing zoo's or palys.

Just my humble .02

[Lord Sevein]

I have heard of errant pods eating polyps. Unfortunately I did not hear back from that member nor have I experienced this myself. As for the actual problem(s) . . . I am sorry I cannot be of more help. It does sound as if the pods are a problem though. Polyps do not just disappear overnight . . .

You could try to do a FW dip when you notice the pods on the zoas (probably at night). I am sure this won't totally eradicate your massive pods, but it could help if they are eating your zoas.

Anyone else have ideas?

-Sevein

[thecichlidpleco]

I had added a 6 line, but he is only out during the day, so that is still 8-10 hours the pods get to dine on zoas if they want to. And if the pods are already a cm long, then a mandarin or a 6 line will not be able to eat them due to their mouth size. Any suggestions on a bigger wrasse that may do the trick?

[delsol650]

Green seagrass, yellow coris, leopard,

these guys get as big as 8" ( green seagrass)
Yellow coris 6"
Leopard 6"-7" ( different variaties to choose from )

I have a mystery, clown, lineatus,bluesided wrasses and a mandarin... nothing gets past them...

[apayne]

I have seen pods eat my zoas. I watched two or three drag a polyp away after they disconnected it from the colony. I added a 6 line and that took care of the problem for me. He was however a little mean to other fish.

Hope that helps,
Aaron

[impur]

My PPE have missing tentacles on the skirts because of this. Thankfully they haven't demolished the whole frag. They also attacked my safecrackers. Moving them up onto my frag tray seemed to help.

[Joy_42]

In the next tank I do, I definitely want a wrasse or two. Not having this problem would be a nice added bonus. However, since this is just a 14 gallon (not even, it's a Biocube...) I don't think I could add anything large enough to eat these.

If someone knows of a little fish with a big mouth, though, I'd love to know!

I did a FW dip on the remaining colony (it's higher in the tank than all of the others-- on the very top rock as opposed to on the bottom rock or on the sandbed like the others). And I "rinsed" the affected colony remnants with a powerhead just in case there was yummy stuff in between. (although I realize it might be too late) Since adding the mandarin there has been a decline in the number of small pods, so maybe it will keep eating the youngest ones and eventually the biggest ones will die off...??

So, in case the zoanthids are sick does anyone think I should do more frequent or higher volume water changes? I usually do about a gallon a week. Is there anything I could add to the tank that is generally good for zoa health? I have a bottle of Kent zooplankton or some such, but it seemed to just pollute so I hardly ever use it.

[Reef Junkie]

I have some questions...?

How long have you had these zoas?

Have you added anything new to the tank?

Not completely unlikely, but most pods do not attack zoas. Yet there are people here that have had this problem before.

Usually you would find out pretty quickly if you had a omnivorous zoa eater in your tank.

My guess and I could be wrong... I think you have another problem that is causing the zoas to stress and die. Their receding flesh is drawing these pods and worms to eat away the dying tissue.

I would dip and try to quarantine these guys, because the pods won't stop eating them.

You might even want to try scrubbing off the dying tissue with a soft toothbrush.

With such a small tank it is very likely that temperature could be the culprit.

What do you use to chill the tank? If nothing, try using a fan on a timer that goes on when your lights do and stays on an hour after they go off. Be sure to keep the water topped off, you will have a lot of evaporation.

But for the most part, Zoanthids will live very happily for a long time if their enviroment isn't disturbed too much. They do recede and grow back over the years, but they shouldn't die off quickly like yours seem to be doing.

[Peter Eichler]

Anyone that doubts these amphipods eat zoanthids is dead wrong. I had them swarm and decimate a few different colonies. I thought I was crazy at first when I started believing it was the amphipods, then I saw a thread or two with others having the same problem. Usually those threads had a bunch of other people telling them they were crazy So... I have a system with a couple tanks tied together, about the same flow in both and good lighting.

I feel these amphipods aren't specialized zoanthi feeders but they will eat them when food sources are low. After adding a Mandarin to the display tank the zoanthids that were having trouble started to show signs of recovery within a week. Even if the Mandarin isn't eating all the pods or even the large pods it was able to thin out the population enough to keep the allow the amphipods to find enough food that isn't a zoanthid. So, some of my frags are looking rough in ym frag tank. I added a Pseudochromis and within a week all of the frags look much better. The Pseudochromis disappears, within a month the frags are starting to look bad again. I upgrade the frag tank to a larger tank and remove any substrate and rock/rubble. All the frags look better until about a month passes and the amphipods are swarming again. I add another Pseudochromis and within a week the frags are looking better.

Months later I have an RPE colony that has some quick growing octocoral on it. I don't want it to spread throughout my display so I put it in a 10 gal. tank I have with a couple zoanthid frags and macroalgae. It's important to note here that certain color morphs and types of zoanthid seem to be more desirable than others and Zoanthus gigantus seems especially delicious to them, but they will eat other types as well. Within a day those RPEs are being swarmed by amphipods and they have not opened since. I can guarantee you when I put that rock back into a tank with an active pod predator that the zoanthids will start to recover and open up within a week.

Thiel, Fenner, Shimek, Calfo, Borneman, Nilsen, Fossa, Sprung and any other expererienced reefer could all tell me I'm wrong and it wouldn't change how positive I am that these amphipods eat zoanthids.

[delsol650]

I second peter here. I personally witnessed several colonies decemated in a couple of weeks by rouge ampipods.. another key to overpopulating your ampipods is with phyto feedings. I noticed when I dosed heavy phyto, my ampipod problem escilated, and my copepod and tiger pods were decimated by the ampipods as well.

My say is " NEVER say NEVER " if its never happend to you... its kinda like the saying a couple of hundred yrs ago that the world was flat.

you can aid your frags by placing them on crates or trays up in the tank walls... ampipods dont scurry as much up the walls compared to rocks and sand.. I was able to save frags by doing this method too.




You can add a 6line to that tank or even a dragon faced pipe fish, they are killers of pods and also will eat red bugs if you have SPS. DoctorFosters&Smith has them for sale for 14.99 and they only grow 5-6" max and reef safe. cool to look at too.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...cfm?pCatId=282

[Reef Junkie]

Yes, it has been documented by other reefers that certain pods will attack zoanthids. I also agree that it would be smart to move them to a safer location.

If there is a problem that is triggering these pods to attack, why not find the source of the problem?
This way in 6 months he doesn't have it again, no?

Personally, Peter, I would never want you to change your mind about amiphipods. In fact I think you're probably right.

This is not an epidemic, though.

Cheers!

[Azurel]

Your right RJ it isn't an epidemic, but is none the less true. I as far as I can remember was one of the first ones that came out publicly saying yes it does happen and got ridiculed for it......But that is besides the point....

I have found that Z. gigantus is one of the first species to be taken down, not sure why but I have noticed that the tissue on Z. gigantus seems to be a bit softer then the smaller counter parts. I have had over 6 RPE frags of different polyp counts get eating with the first week while no other frags were touched. Each one of these frags were healthy and expanding......

Personally I think that it becomes a resource issue as the pod population expands to beyond what the environment can hold stable then they begin to look for other means of food. I posted a picture on here some where that showed a pod that was all most as big as a penny with a tinge of orange color in it's exoskeleton. I believe that these are the ones that do the eating. When I noticed this happening was right after my Mandarin past away after 6 years and then the population exploded far beyond what the system could prop up then the eating began. I think I lost over 20 frags because of this.

One of the ways I fixed it was a 6 line and I would feed a little at night with flake or cyclop-eeze which seamed to help out. Since I started this I have not lost one single frag or colony to this issue. I would put a weeks pay that it isn't a parameter or chemical issue but the fact that they are competing for food when there isn't actually enough to support the population. When this happens most animals if not all will go in to survival mode and Begin to eat things that under normal circumstances they would not......

[Reef Junkie]

Originally posted by Azurel
Your right RJ it isn't an epidemic, but is none the less true.

So, is this the part where you go "na na nana na"?

I actually think your hypothesis is dead on.
That's why I have not been a proponent of heavy feedings.

People tend to feed heavily until they get bored or forget to do it and then these smaller organisims go into survival mode.

You see whole tank crashes and huge algae blooms in these tanks after the feeding stops. I think the best way is to give consistent feedings of just enough.

If you are a heavy feeder, I would throttle back on your feedings, SLOWLY. Filter your water well and add pods eaters. I actually keep 3 wrasses, a rainfords goby, copperband butterfly...

I wasn't a believer when I first heard of pod attacks, but hearing these horror stories and many other and seeing the pictures has made me believe that it's possible.

If I was one of the people that did the ridiculing, I'm sorry, I was wrong. I'm sure you know how I feel when the mob begins bragging about how much they feed and I step in and say not to...

[Azurel]

Naw I don't think you were........I have long forgot about it, it's kinda funny really when something that happens that is not of the norm how hard it is to prove to people that it is in fact happening, of course with out evidence it is also hard to prove as well.......

You make a good point as well.....about getting lazy after feeding heavy....Been there don that, could have very well contributed to the problem, which I would assume help the population explode as there was enough to satisfy until the feedings trended downward......Good point I actually didn't think about it that way as well....

[Reef Junkie]

Oh, you mean like when those Aliens came down to visit me and a friend back in College. It had nothing to do with the Acid we took!

[airinhere]

Just to play Devils Advocate here,
I think your water params could still be the issue.

I have no doubt about the problems Pods can wreak on zoos. I just think this might be premature in this case.

What is your dKH?

You posted your pH at 8.2, if your dKH is very low (around 6) you could experience pH swings all the way down to 7.7 (or more) at night.

You also read your nitrates as barely there.
Are you using the API kits?

If yes, are you shaking the #2 bottle for at least 2 minutes before dripping? API kits settle somehow, and you have to shake them up really good to get them to work right.

A tank that small, decent zoanthid death and your nitrates are fine? Humor me and try the test again, I betcha its really a high nitrate problem.

(The pods are just eating the rotting zoanthids after they died from the high nitrates and possible pH swings due to the low dKH)

Again, just playing Devils Advocate.

[Sk8r]

In my own longago experience with zoas, the dkh mattered: they'd get out of sorts about it. I try to keep around 8.3 for my stonies, and I don't think it would be much different for zoas. Ph at 7.9-8.3.

When things are dead the undertakers move in: bristleworms are out as a perpetrator, because their mouths can only take in semi-liquids: physical impossibility for them to eat a live zoa. Eunicids might not be out, because they are predatory worms [4 tentacles around head and bad news.] They look more like centipedes than like bristleworms.

I am also a little iffy about the accuracy of the tests, but I also know I haven't seen everything in the ocean---I welcome copepods [algae-eaters] and amphipods [fishfood] crawling all over my sps and lps and such, and have never had any damage---well, corals will EAT pods, so it's bad for the pod.

But it's also true that hitchhikers ride in on their favorite food, and if you have a species-specific tank they can really nosh down fast and multiply, so I'm not saying you haven't just been really unlucky in the amphipod department...but look very closely after dark and by red light and see if you don't have a crab [notorious for bad behavior toward fishes] or other nippy sort of fellow living in the holes in your specimen rock.

I feel for you. It's a bad feeling, watching something like this go on without a solid clue what's to blame: but first be absolutely sure of your chemistry, and then do some night-fishing.

[thecichlidpleco]

delsol650, its funny that you mention the phyto thing. I have recently started making my own and have used it a lot. I never thought it would have such and adverse affect.

[Lord Sevein]

Not to sidetrack everyone from the thread, but I wanted to take the time to thank everyone here for sharing your experiences. It has been really good to see more people moving away from the "ID PLZ" and "LOOK AT MY PRETTIES!" threads and more towards informative and collaborative information threads. This is especially important when it comes to forging new ground as this thread is. You all are helping everyone else care for their corals that much better.

Keep it up! . . . and sorry for hijacking.

-Sevein

[thejrc]

As far as the phyto peice goes, keep in mind copepods have much much smaller means of taking in foods, smaller particle size must be maintained in your phyto diet (think isochrysis). I have yet to find a proveable account of any COPEpods eating corals, I have seen (including this one) many many counts of amphipods eating corals, and as they grow they will also tend toward copepods... which is bad (if you like copepods I suppose).

The unfortunate downside is, how to get rid of them without adversely affecting everything else? Do you stop phyto and zooplankton feeding altogether? thus starving copepods, amphipods, and corals alike?

I guess the recommendation I would make would be to quarrantine if possible the affected colonies, and put a turkey baster next to the tank, every time you walk by if you notice these pods on your coral suck them out and dump em, then maybe blow off any other creatures hanging out to give the polyp a fighting chance. Not sure how or if your feeding but spot feed the polyps if you can to reduce suspended phyto. Unfortunately amphipods that large are probably feeding more on detritus, copepods, and your corals than anything else. If you feed phyto try and feed something with a smaller particulate size to encourage copepod feeding and perhaps the amphipods will ignore it, isochrysis could be a decent choice.

Now that you have a mandarin, you've got to keep up the edible supply to keep the fish happy, and these big guys are competing for the same space most likely. Might take a few weeks of turkey baster sucking every chance you get but it is possible to put a big enough dent in population to eventually clear up the problem. As the population drops there will be less competition for regular foods and perhaps they will then be able to feed normally without munching your corals! As well by sucking out the massive adults you see, the mandarin will most likely keep the smaller ones at bay, it's a tag team!

Good luck!

[delsol650]

I just get a natural means of control that would not starve out in cases that the natural control does decemate the pod population to controlable levels ( IE' wrasses, mandarins or pipefish ).