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Inorganic Carbon to Reduce Phosphate & Nitrate?
Before vodka and sugar dosing became the vogue, carbon was dosed and continues to be dosed in aquariums with the use of:
• calcium reactors • CO2 injection with pH controllers • acetic acid & kalkwasser solutions While the intent is to maintain calcium, alkalinity, and pH levels, these systems also serve to add carbon dioxide and bicarbonates to the aquarium. When inorganic carbon is dosed judiciously or with the use of controllers, pH swings and carbonate precipitation can be avoided. Can these systems reduce phosphate and nitrate by promoting growth of autotrophic bacteria in the water column to be skimmed? |
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That's an interesting question, but I doubt that most tanks are carbon-dioxide-limited, in any case. For that to happen, the pH of the tank would have to be very high. That could happen with a large refugium, but that's uncommon in saltwater tanks. Sugar and vodka are intended for heterotrophic (or mixotrophic) bacteria.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
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In theory, CO2 will became HCO3........
Why dont you add H2CO3 instead of CO2? So maintaining pH and concentration of CaHCO3 will more accurate. promoting bacteria by that system only additional related effect, and there will be more complicated.
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regards, Wong BANTEN |
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Carbon dosing for the purpose of maintaining alkalinity, calcium and pH levels is commonly done in a number of ways:
1. Kalkwasser dosing with pH controllers that use CO2 injection 2. Calcium reactors that use CO2 controllers to dissolve calcium carbonate 3. Acetic acid (white vinegar) & kalkwasser. In the first two methods, CO2 is injected into either a reactor or to the aquarium itself while limewater is produced or dosed. A CO2 controller maintains the proper pH level. CO2 or its derivatives, carbonate (CO3), bicarbonate (HCO3), and carbonic acid (H2CO3), serve as sources of inorganic carbon. When acetic acid (white vinegar) is dosed with kalkwasser, the vinegar is consumed biologically and produces CO2 to prevent the kalkwasser from raising the pH too high (Delbeek & Sprung, "The Reef Aquarium," vol. 3, p. 220). Delbeek and Sprung hypothesize that the use of vinegar to boost kalkwasser effectiveness can promote uptake of phosphate and nitrate by bacteria (ibid, p. 275). |
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I do not disagree with that pdj. I think were we are stuck at is how much will they remove.
wong In theory, CO2 will became HCO3........ Yes if the pH rises and if it rises more it becomes CO3-- but that shift has no effedct on Alk, just pH. There is just a shift in their ratios. The only time CO2 becomes HCO3 is if reacts with something like kalk Ca(OH)2 ---> Ca++ + 2OH 2OH + 2CO2 = 2 HCO3-, which rises the pH and Alk. Why don't you add H2CO3 instead of CO2? There is not such thing really accept in solution. You can't go buy any H2CO3. Adding CO2 water creates H2CO3. So they only thing would be carbonated water or Seltzer Water. concentration of CaHCO3 Same with this there is no such thing accept as an ion pair :Ca::HCO3: , where : = surrounded by 1-2 layers of water molecules.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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Greetings All !
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Organic carbon limitation is an entirely different issue, but at this point we're no longer talking about autotrophic marine bacteria ... we're now talking about heterotrophic marine bacteria (in all their various forms). Quote:
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For a review of the potentially dizzying set of variables involved in the distinguishing structural and metabolic characteristics of autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria, you might wish to spend a few moments with these ... II. The Comparative Physiology of Autotrophic Bacteria W. W. Umbreit Bacteriol Rev. 1962 June; 26(2 Pt 1-2): 145–150. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...45&pageindex=1 Cationic composition of 22 species of bacteria grown in seawater medium. G E Jones, L G Royle, and L Murray Appl Environ Microbiol., v.38(5); Nov 1979 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=243589 If you're interested in "dosing" something to enrich marine bacterial metabolic behavior, you might consider something which incorporates either glutamate, or glutamine. These amino acids are oftentimes the major donor of organic nitrogen in many biosynthetic reactions involving marine bacteria. And no, I have no wish to engage the amino acid dosing pro vs. con debate (the research literature speaks for itself). Bsides, I like my fingers just the way they are ... ... intact ... ... ... Other potential "dosing" candidates include metal ions and trace elements. The Center for Environmental Bioinorganic Chemistry (CEBIC), and the Princeton Environmental Institute (PEI), has posted some really interesting ... and readily digestible ... information in this area. Examples include: Trace metals, enzymes, and biogeochemical cycles Princeton Environmental Institute (PEI) http://www.princeton.edu/~cebic/enzymecycles.html Chelation, uptake, and binding of trace metals Princeton Environmental Institute (PEI) http://www.princeton.edu/~cebic/chelbindintro.html Quote:
Researchers have long noted the role of "carbon dosing" in the culture of marine bacteria. For example ... Quote:
And yet, in terms of the research literature, things are not as straightforward as many manufacturers, distributors, and hobbyist-practioneers would have us believe. The additon of a carbon source DOES present the opportunity to enrich the assimilatory reduction of nitrate and phosphate ... no question ... but the specifics of such enrichment pathways remain elusive. From the above referenced article ... Quote:
JMO ... sorry for the length
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Mesocosm |
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No how did I know you were going to pop in Meso
You must have sniff program for this stuff on this forum marine aquaria are simply not CO2 limited Of course not as long as they can convert, HCO3- or CO3-- into CO2 or lower the pH, which shifts the carbonate system to a lower pH with more CO2. Not to mention the Alk is C source, as it is mostly HCO3- and CO3--. Other things to read. Bacterial Biogeochemistry by Fenchel, King and Blackburn Mirobial Ecology of the Ocean by Kirchman
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. Last edited by Boomer; 07/09/2007 at 11:10 AM. |
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Interesting post, Mesocosm! Thanks!
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Jonathan Bertoni |
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Nitrogen Limitation
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(2) Are photo-autotrophic organisms (plants, algae, bacteria) that can assimulate CO2 through photosynthesis limited by organic nitrogen, such as amino acids? (3) In the water column, what are photosynthetic organisms that can assimulate CO2, phosphates and nitrates limited by? |
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Greetings All !
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Besides, pjf's questions hit a happy nerve. The whole issue of "carbon dosing" in marine aquaria is fascinating. The distinctions between inorganic vs. organic carbon utilization are potentially useful to many aquarists ... on a lot of levels. Quote:
Boomer references are the best ! JMO
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
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Even so, the carbon-nitrogen-phosphorus (and oxygen) relationship of the Redfield Ratio is a useful ratio for trying to get at "tweaking" optimal performance out of microorganisms (if for no other reason than that it is the primary ratio that marine researchers have focused on). The rub is ... aquarists aren't dealing with oceanic food webs and nutrient cycles, so they need to be much more specific in terms of the organism they're intersted in. For example, while DON is clearly a limiting variable for cyanobacteria, a microalgae like Derbasia is much more limited by either P or Fe. JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
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While it's tempting to be overwhelmed by this potentially mind-mumbing set of variables ... not to worry. Our captive marine ecosystems are much more analogous to a laboratory culture vessel than they are to full-blown, natural marine ecosystems. These relationships and interactions are describable, but the database is still under construction ... which is why threads like this are so potentially useful. JMO
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
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... What follows is speculative opinion. Such an opinion, along with $3.95, will get you a tall Cafe Mocha at Starbucks ... My perspective is that the utility of dosing amino acids is that such a husbandry selection is addressing a fundamental issue ... nitrogen limitation involving marine bacteria. I contend that the fundamental benefit(s) of amino acid dosing involve marine bacteria. Why? Buckle up ... ... Quote:
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Not JMO ... this is the science ... Even so, a meaningful read of the Kirchman & Hodson article will detail how, in addition to some straightforward increases in uptake and respiration, there are other equally straightforward inhibition pathways. We're talking mixed bag ... not a slam dunk. If you're looking for the "silver bullet" formula or ratio for maximizing assimilatory nitrate and phosphate reduction ... sorry, but I've never stumbled across anything like that in the research literature. Lots of tantilizing clues ... no directly applicable ratios or formulae. It is also perhaps worth pointing out that any quest in search of maximizing assimilatory nitrate and phosphate reduction is going to be much more engaged with heterotrophic microorganisms. Why the focus on autotrophs? JMO ... HTH ... sorry for the length.
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Mesocosm |
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Meso
Have you heard of or looked into the Italian Blue Coral Method, where GRH's are added to the water. There have been many long threads on it just like the ZeoVit system here on RC Also there have been many post here on RC (SPS forum IIRC) and there on dosing AA. Last month Chris Brighwell launched his new company, where they have AA's in their product line. http://brightwellaquatics.com/
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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Greetings All !
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GRHs (presuming that we're talking about so-called 'growth regulating hormones') are actually "a bridge too far" for me. Strange as it may sound coming from a reefkeeper with a bent towards the mad scientist experimentation thing ... I'm not prepared to muck with the cellular machinery on that level. Dosing "magic potions"? ... no problem. Dosing glucocorticoids or mineralocorticoids? Just a bit much ... However, the chemical precursors of hormones, and the cellular mechanisms that produce hormones in corals, are issues that I'm very interested in taking a hard look at ... hence my ridiculous fascination with peptide and vitamin dosing. Also, there's another level to my twisted thinking ... the holobiont (including the bacterial microbiota). Consider this interactive relationship ... Coral Host <--> Zooxanthellae <--> Microbiota It strikes me that there's a potential for a better "overall" response/benefit if I dose precursors that are useable by all three components of the above relationship (as opposed to specific hormones which only impact the coral host). JMO ... this is out on the edge, folks. The research literature is hardly definitive ... So consume this perspective with large NaCl crystals ... On a different tangent, if anyone out there is interested in the topic of hormones as they relate to the sexual reproduction of corals, these may be of interest ... Corals have already evolved the vertebrate-type hormone system in the sexual reproduction Twan, Wen-Hung; Wu, Hua-Fang; Hwang, Jiang-Shiou; Lee, Yan-Horn; Chang, Ching-Fong Fish Physiology and Biochemistry, Volume 31, Numbers 2-3, April 2005 , pp. 111-115(5) http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...1?crawler=true The Presence and Ancestral Role of Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone in the Reproduction of Scleractinian Coral, Euphyllia ancora. Wen-Hung Twan, Jiang-Shiou Hwang, Yan-Horn Lee, Shan-Ru Jeng, Wen-Shiun Yueh, Ying-Hsiu Tung, Hua-Fang Wu, Sylvie Dufour and Ching-Fong Chang Endocrinology Vol. 147, No. 1 397-406, 2006 http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/147/1/397 Maybe the Italians aren't as crazy as some have asserted ... On yet another hormone-related tangent, reducing the stress of transshipped fish through the use of dietary supplements aimed at enriching the production of cortisols is another Bizzaro World topic I've taken a look at ... for example ... Measurement of fecal glucocorticoids in parrotfishes to assess stress TURNER John W., NEMETH Richard & ROGERS Caroline General and comparative endocrinology (Gen. comp. endocrinol.) 2003, vol. 133, no3, pp. 341-352 http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15120014 The things you can do with chemistry ... Quote:
Regardless, this is the kind of trend I've been posting about for quite a while now ... the blending of science and practical husbandry experience in a way that consumers in the North American marine ornamental industry have never seen before. The days of practical husbandry anecdotes dominating the implications of the research literature are going bye-bye ... a new and powerful hybrid is in the process of emerging. JMO
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 07/11/2007 at 05:44 PM. |
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If I understand you correctly, heterotrophic bacteria are not limited by carbon per se (CO2) but rather by organic carbons (vodka, sugar).
As for autotrophic bacteria, my impression is that dosing organic nitrogen (amino acids) to export inorganic nitrogen (nitrate) may be self-defeating. A "silver bullet" to produce a bloom of planktonic photoautotrophs that assimilates nitrates and phosphates and can be exported via skimming appears to be elusive. At publication of the 3rd volume of Delbeek & Sprung's "The Reef Aquarium," the jury was still out regarding vodka & sugar dosing. There was speculation that the bloom produced was nothing more than carbonate precipitation. Has that issue been resolved? |
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Meso
Great post again and Is this the same Chris Brightwell who wrote The Nano-Reef Handbook? Yes, and he also just released a chem book but I have lots of issues with it. It could have been a great book. If you go to that website and look under the link "About Us" his name is at the bottom as President. pjf There was speculation that the bloom produced was nothing more than carbonate precipitation. I do not know if it has or not, I'm not into this vodka, sugar stuff at all. It should have been easy enough to find out. IMHO I think it is a bloom.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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Greetings All !
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... cyanobacteria Quote:
There are other issues with trying to generate rapid growth phase planktonic photoautotrophs in marine aquaria, the two primary ones (JMO) are: (1) the virtual removal of life cycle stages by protein skimming, and (2) the "side effects" of the necessity for including a necessary limiting factor (as with excess silica of iron). Quote:
JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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Wow, what a fascinating thread!
Awesome stuff Mesocosm!! A question re this comment Quote:
Quote - "Scientific studies have shown that Nitrosomonas bacterium are so efficient that a single cell can convert ammonia at a rate that would require up to one million heterotrophs to accomplish". Taken from http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html OK it's an advertisement LOL, but would indicate that autotrophs can be a lot more useful than heterotrophs, assuming they got their facts right. Any comments? |
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Can someone explain what the difference is between autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria?
Plus how this will affect the aquarium? |
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Greetings All !
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(i) An autotroph is an organism that produces organic compounds from carbon dioxide as a carbon source, using either light or reactions of inorganic chemical compounds as a source of energy. (ii) The ability to produce organic food without eating other organisms. Heterotrophic (i) Obtaining nourishment from organic substances, not from food produced within the organism. (ii) Requiring organic substrates for growth and development; being incapable of synthesizing required organic materials from inorganic sources. I like visual aids. Wikipedia presents a flowchart for deciding whether or not an organism is autotrophic or heterotrophic here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Troph_flowchart.svg Not to compound the issue, but it's also worth noting that there are organisms which demonstrate both autotrophic and heterotrophic behavior. Some microorganisms (Euglenoids) can absorb decayed organic material and photosynthesize ... some plants (like the Venus Fly Trap) can photosynthesize and absorb decayed organic material. There are two other definitions that may prove helpful to this discussion ... organic vs. inorganic. Organic Compound An organic compound is any member of a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon. The name "organic" is a historical name, dating back to 19th century, when it was believed that organic compounds could only be synthesised in living organisms through vis vitalis - the "life-force". The theory was that organic compounds were fundamentally different from those that were "inorganic". While this theory has been proven wrong, the name has stuck nonetheless. For more background reading on organic compounds ... and a wonderful listing of specific compounds ... see here (the patterns might be helpful to you): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compounds Inorganic Compound Inorganic compounds are considered to be of mineral, not biological, origin. Inorganic compounds can be formally defined with reference to what they are not ( ... i.e., they're not organic compounds... isn't the circular distortion of some historical definitions great?). When considering inorganic chemistry and life, it is useful to recall that many species in nature are not compounds per se but are ions. Sodium, chloride, and phosphate ions are essential for life, as are some inorganic molecules such as carbonic acid, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, water and oxygen. For more background reading on inorganic compounds, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inorganic_compound For a mind-numbing list of inorganic compounds, see here (the patterns might be useful to you): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...anic_compounds Not JMO ... this is the science.
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
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Lithotroph A lithotroph is an organism which uses an inorganic substrate (usually of mineral origin) for use in biosynthesis, or aerobic or anaerobic respiration. The term "Lithotroph" is created from the terms 'lithos' (rock) and 'troph' (consumer). It literally is the "eaters of rock." Lithotrophs participate in many geological processes, such as the weathering of parent material (bedrock) to form soil, as well as biogeochemical cycling of sulfur, nitrogen, and other elements. For more background reading, see here (please note that this one is not specifically referenced): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithotroph Some lithotrophic bacteria and their specific pathways ... Iron bacteria oxidize ferrous iron (Fe2+) into ferric iron (Fe3+) ; Nitrifying bacteria oxidize ammonia into nitrite or, nitrite into nitrate; Sulfur bacteria oxidize sulfide into sulfur or, subsequently, sulfur into sulfate. They also can grow on a number of other reduced sulfur compounds (e. g. thiosulfate, thionates, polysulfides, sulfite). The varieties of lithotrophs that are of most use to marine aquarists include: Chemolithotrophs Use inorganic compounds for aerobic or anaerobic respiration. The energy produced by the oxidation of these compounds is enough for ATP production. Some of electrons derived from the inorganic donors also need to be chanelled into biosynthesis. Photolithotrophs Use light as energy source. These bacteria are photosynthetic. Photolithotrophic bacteria are found in the purple bacteria (Chromatiaceae), green bacteria (Chlorobiaceae and Chloroflexaceae) and Cyanobacteria. The electrons obtained from the electron donors (purple and green bacteria oxidize sulfide, sulfur, sulfite, iron or hydrogen; Cyanobacteria extract reducing equivalents from water, i. e. oxidise water to oxygen) are not used for ATP production (as long as there is light); they are used in biosynthetic reactions. Some photolithotrophs shift over to chemolithotropic metabolism in the dark. Some of the more interesting lithotrophic bacteria and their pathways include ... Thiobacillus denitrificans which is one of many known sulfur bacteria oxidizing reduced sulfur compounds with nitrate instead of oxygen ... and ... Anammox bacteria which oxidise ammonia with nitrite as electron acceptor to produce nitrogen gas. JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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Greetings All !
While all this definitional stuff is arguably necessary if we're going to speak meaningfully about the bacteria-driven biogeochemical stuff, it's hardly satisfying, and at this point ... arguably useless. Happily, auckreef asked the really good question ... Quote:
Additionally, what if it turns out that corals, and their filter-feeding allies (like Gorgonians), not only like eating bacteria (BTW, there's lots of evidence for this, although some corals prefer sunbathing) ... but that they also benefit significantly from the metabolites that are generated by the bacteria living on their surface and immediate environment (holobiont)? If it turns out to be functional and safe (definitely an issue in the dosing of vodka and/or sugar in an uninformed, casual, or haphazrd way) wouldn't a simple, inexpensive combination of carbon sources & elements be a really good thing for the "hobby" in general? What I'm fumbling around trying to say is this ... dosing carbon sources & elements has the potential to allow us to do things (in terms of simultaneous nutrient reduction and feeding) that no technological toy, mechanical upgrade, or synthetic resin can do. I do not assert the necessity of such a strategy ... the demonstrations of awesome mastery of the "minimalist" concept ecosystem managers speak for themselves. I'm saying that anything which is both safe and effective is a legitimate addition to the husbandry toolbox of reefkeepers everywhere. JMO ... let the beatings begin.
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 07/15/2007 at 09:58 AM. |
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Greetings All !
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... is well made. Apologies if I've contributed to any confusion with my clumsy lack of distinction between autotrophs (in general), photoautotrophs, and chemoautotrophs. I have a mental bias in that I think of autotrophic bacteria as being primarily photosynthetic (photolithotrophs). I think of the behavior of nitrifying bacteria as lithotrophic ... which the general useage allows (both academic and common) ... but the point that they might be more technically (better) defined as chemolithoautotrophs is very well taken. Please don't be put off by these definitions, folks. The distinctions are important ... JMO
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Mesocosm |
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Thanks again Mr. Bacteria
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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