how much time will reef sand work?

[dav99]

Hi, my question is if i start a new tank will reef sand work forever or i will have to change it in a couple of years for new one?

Thanks

David

[Treeman]

You should change some of it every year. You could do about 25% per year. There is a lot of discussion about how much and when. But it does collect phosphates over time.

[hansmatt]

Any suggestions about changing it then? Grab a handfull out and put one in on top?
I have a pretty deep sand bed (4-5" in tank) that was inherited with the tank. I am now battling hair algae with no success despite every effort (RO, PO4 reactor, snails, crabs, fish, sea hares) and assume PO4 is bound in the substrate and being slowly released. I vac'd a few sections to clean it up, and had a few fish die within the following week for no reason (related?)

[Treeman]

I would take a small section and vacum that out. You can use a piece of 1/2" hose, that way you can get it quick. It will remove some water, but that is good. Discard all of it. All the way to the bottom. Then take some new well rinsed sand and put it in as gently as you can. You can try putting it in a bag or something and slowly emptying that at the bottom of the tank.

I would have water ready in case you need to do a water change. You can release Phosphates and a lot of other nasty stuff, depending on what is going on in the sand bed. What colors do you have in the DSB? I don't think the fish dying would have anything to do with it a few days later. But it depends. Do some water tests a few hours after you take the sand out.

Do you have any phosphate sponges etc going?

The best thing that I have found to get rid of HA is to take a power head and use it to blow as much detritus out of the rock as I can. Don't try and do all the rocks at one time. Just pick a rock or two and clean as much HA off as you can get. Then take a powerhead and use it to blow in every hole you can. A lot of the problem can be water flow.

[hansmatt]

Thanks, I've been scrubbing with a toothbrush & blowing with a baster/powerhead, not a ton of progress though. I have phosban & carbon running, no sponge as of yet. Mostly brown colors, a few greens in sections of the bed, which I believe to be mostly crushed coral with some bits of actual sand. Again, I cannot correlate the vaccuum with the fish deaths, and have not been able to determine elevated levels of anything we test for after the fact, so the forensics get a bit tough. I inherited the tank, which had been set up for multiple years. It made a 250 mile move drained to the dsb, and didn't cycle or lose any livestock in the first months, but after 3 months the HA started to rear it's ugly head.

[phish-phan]

Good luck to you hansmatt

[dav99]

Ive been told that if you keep sand clean theres no need to change 25% each year.... what you guys think?

[AZDesertRat]

I've never changed any in the 3.5 years my current system has been in operation. I do add a few cups of live sand from other systems every one in a while though to keep it charged. I think an occasional infusion is important.

[hansmatt]

Well my system has had cleaners for it's course of life (I believe it's been set up for 8-10 years at least). I have sand that is 2-3" up from the bottom molding of the tank, so a good 4" deep or more. The bed is visibly "dirty" with growth, not detritus, in the visible sections along the edge. Some pretty interesting colors. Though my phosphate tests low, I think it is slowly being released into the tank as it is being consumed by micro/macroalgae and the phosphate remover. I recognize this is conjecture, but makes sense from a chemical standpoint from my limited view. Perhaps the replace/recharge model would be good to try on a regular basis.

[BeanAnimal]

You do not need to change your sand every year

[hansmatt]

Certainly not, but a bit at a time might be good. Does anyone actually KNOW that phosphate or other can be bound then released in substrate?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by hansmatt
Certainly not, but a bit at a time might be good. Does anyone actually KNOW that phosphate or other can be bound then released in substrate?

this thread might interest you:
(be forewarned... you need to get beyond the first few pages before it gets good)
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

[shred5]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
this thread might interest you:
(be forewarned... you need to get beyond the first few pages before it gets good)
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

LOL the famous thread that will not die.. Hey Gary whats up?

A well maintained sand bed should last almost for ever. I have had sand beds in some of my tanks that were 8+ years old. Sand beds can have many benifits but like everything else needs to be taken care of. Problem is alot of people added sand beds as a saftey net and abused them. a sanbed is not so you can over feed your tank. I never changed out my sand but did add some as it disapeared. It is hard to argue that a sand bed can not work when some people have had them 10+ years with no problems. Question is what are they doing right. To me one of the keys to a successfull sand bed is keep the rocks off of it so detritus does not get stuck in between the rocks. Funny thing is people like to blame any faluire in there tank on sandbeds when it had nothing to do with it. Any algae bloom, oh it has to be my sand bed.

I also have kept bare bottom tanks as long and both have their benifits.If you are lazier a bare bottom tank may be for you because they are easier to keep detritus in suspension. Also it is much easier to see the detritus to remove it. But you loose that buffer. If something goes wrong it seems to happen much faster.

Dave

[hansmatt]

I agree, suspending detritus is a must. I have my rock on a black eggcrate scaffolding, resting on top of pvc spraybars that keep things fairly clean. This too has downfalls (eggcrate has too many places to catch debris). I have not spent the time on the binding question/thread yet, and will take blame where it is due, but a small pinch of flake a day with good skimming is unlikely to be the sole cause of HA.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I don't believe anyone's opinion that I respect ever claimed that DSB's don't work. IME detritus can accumulate betweeen grains of sugarfine sand in a DSB- even with proper DSB husbandry. Think about it- where do sandbed worms go poop?
Even Shimek came to the eventual conclusion that recharging and removal/replacement can be useful tools to maximize the effective lifespan of a DSB.
Sheesh. Whoever thought you'd need to learn the proper husbandry for a lousy pile of sand?

Anyhoot, I think that thread answers hansmatt's question.

Originally posted by hansmatt
Does anyone actually KNOW that phosphate or other can be bound then released in substrate?

The thread in the above link addresses this.
It's not just DSB's that can bind up unwanted substances- liverock can as well, (thus the birth of "liverock cooking" techniques).
It's not really a matter of "right" or "wrong". It's a matter of can it possibly happen.

[shred5]

IME detritus can accumulate betweeen grains of sugarfine sand in a DSB- even with proper DSB husbandry. Think about it- where do sandbed worms go poop?

True but other things come along and eat that poop and eventually it gets broken down to nothing or gets worked out of the sand. Is there going to be some left in the sand? of coarse. There is also going to be some in your rocks, in the corners of your tank and sump. If someone wnats to replace some of their sand fine, what can it hurt. I just never did and if you looked at my sand bed 6 months after I set it up or 6 years you could not tell the difference. oh and another key is do not cure your rock with your sand bed.

It's not just DSB's that can bind up unwanted substances- liverock can as well, (thus the birth of "liverock cooking" techniques).

Yes live sand can and live rock.


There will always be some nutrients in our system and there is nothing we can do about it. Also some nutrients are needed if we got them to zero our corals would die. Zooxanthelle require phosphate and nitrogen to survive.

Fact is it all comes down to good husbandry and for anyone to say there system is the only way is wrong. There are lots of successful ways to keep a reef.

Seems like sometime we like to over do things in this hobby. Lets see how much lighting we can throw over our tank, lets get the biggest best skimmer when it is not needed. Such a waste of money. We throw corals in our tanks that would never be found next ot each other in the wild and we wonder why it died and start pointing fingers at everything. We throw corals together from different reef zones, different flows and different lighting and differents amounts of nutrients.

The tread starter asked a question that really can not be answered because nobody knows, everyones tank is different, some people feed more, some people have better skimmers, some people take better care of their tanks, all the different setups etc.

My first reef tank had a coral gravel bottom with 4 normal output fluorescent lamps 3 grow lamps from the garden center and a philips tl03 actinc lamp it and no skimmer. Tank did awsum. I would never recommend to someone that this is the way to keep a system. We have progressed over the years and found better ways.

Wow some how I turned this into a history lesson.. I have always wanted to write an article on the history of the hobby.

By the way my post was not aimed at you. It was just at this hole dsb/bb debate in gerneral.

By the way Gary your tank is still one of my favorites. Your tank looks so natural and never looks overcrouded and like everything was just thrown in there. ? I would really like to see some updated pictures of it.

Gary You going to imac? We need to sit down and have a beer sometime, us old timers. You use to use the compuserve fishnet forums in the day too right? My mind is failing me lol.

Dave

[Gary Majchrzak]

I'll take a raincheck on the beer, Dave. No plans to attend IMAC in the forseeable future for me (unfortunately).
I agree that too many people quickly jump to the conclusion that their nuisance algae outbreak is caused by a DSB.
There's no doubt that an appearance of the algae Cladophora can signify something in an aquarium is "burping" or leaching substances accumulated over time, but the appearance of nuisance algae isn't as much of an issue as the inhibition of calcification (in stony corals) due to accumulated orthophosphates IMO.
Regarding this thread's topic the advent of the remote DSB "DSB in a bucket" is a very good one and I think if someone chooses to utilize a DSB it's a very good way to go. It can definitely extend the life of a DSB while minimizing it's husbandry requirements.
Thanks for the compliments on my aquarium- I'm posting a recent pic.
FWIW I'm now running half BB and half SSB (shallow sandbed) after running a DSB in the main display for several years. There are several ways to utilize sand in any aquarium system- an important fact that's often overlooked.

[hansmatt]

I appreciate the insights of those of you with a vast history in this hobby (and I don't take offense or think remarks were directed at me...life is too short for all that nonsense). With that said, I just wish I could get rid of this stinking stuff! I hope that my tank can someday have even half the splendor of yours...WOW, beautiful!

[dav99]

so a 1 " bed + rdsb is a good way to do it? is nice to the view and no dsb problems

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by dav99
so a 1 " bed + rdsb is a good way to do it? is nice to the view and no dsb problems

There are no "good" or "bad" way to do things...
there are simply different options.
You can run a reef aquarium with an undergravel filter, but there's no doubt much better choices nowadays.
A shallow sandbed of 1" depth presents many of the problems associated with a DSB and none of a DSB's advantages of denitrification.
A properly functioning DSB doesn't need to be stirred.
A SSB should be stirred (IME & IMO).

[shred5]

wow you changed the hole look of your tank. You used to have rock on both sides and more of it. I love it though, looks awsum like this.

I agree a remote sand bed is the way to go.

I put on in a fuge once and would not recommend it. It algae trapped to much detritus and deposited on the sand bed. I typically run a slower flow through my fuge and it turned more into a settling tank..

Dave

[dav99]

Gary: So, i dont get it. What would be the best option? I have 1" or less bed, should i make it deeper?