Killing Bryopsis with elevated Mg levels.

[piercho]

I have not tried this, and FWIW, have not needed to. However, Bryopsis can be a bugger for many folks so I'm linking these threads because the method appears effective and you can make your own decisions. Plus, its an interesting theory that Mike Obrien (mojoreef) has:

Yep its not fun to deal with and if untreated it will own your system eventually. Here is one for you. Most all Plants (bryopsis included) have an affinity to bind up and absorb metals, actually metals are essencial for the metabolisms of plants. The problem is that when plants threshold limits has been reached in terms of metals the metals become an enzyme inhibitor and enzyme inhibitors in the case of Bryopsis is just what we are looking for. SO the plan is to stuff that plant with as muich metals as we can so it reaches its threshold. Ok ok metals and corals are not such a good plan...but their is an exception...our buddy Magnesium.
Raise your mg level ( try NOT to use Mg sulfate = epson salts) to approx. 1500 to 1600 and hold it thier for about 3 months. you should see a slight increase in the plants mass initically, but then it will begin to dissolve away. And yes it will play a little havoc with your alk for the time but should be an easy fix once you are done

posted by mojoreef, Reef Frontiers, 4/23/07
Here are two source threads:
Finally an easy solution to bryopsis!
Bryopsis only thread

[Samala]

Howard have you trialed this at all? I dont have any rocks infested with Bryopsis to give it a try. (I buy 'em with the stuff, and it just doesnt live in my tanks!)

>Sarah

[piercho]

No, but I thought the threads were interesting and mojoreef is a very experienced reef keeper which lends some credibility to the method. I had Bryopsis for a couple of months around year 1.5, and then for a month or so after I move the tank at year 4. Both times it collapsed quickly with no special action on my part. Some people have it persist for years.

[Me No Nemo]

Hmmm...I get some from time to time in my farm. I keep the mag at 1500+ all the time, but still get breakouts since the farm is so packed. The only thing I've found to combat it are the large Hawaiian sea hares...nothing else seems to have any effect on the stuff.

[fijiblue]

After speaking with Mr. Calfo, I tried elevated PH (8.5) constantly for two weeks and that did the trick for me.

[PSam]

What is the best way to keep pH that high for two weeks?

[Plantbrain]

I'm skeptical to say the least. Plants, algae etc are pretty well adapted to high Mg in the marine environment.

They can simply use another ions to balance the osmolytica when you are talking these kinds of concentrations.

Showing selectivity is difficult.

What we do know from this: high levels of Mg are not harmful to many critters and inverts.

That is particularly useful.

Lack of water changes, lack of pruning the tank, lack of herbivores etc can play huge roles here.

And if you change things there, it's hard to ascribe correlation with cause.

Folks often will do many things all at once when addressing a problem.

They care less about "why" and much more about "how to get rid it any possible method asap"

You need to start with a culture or learn how to induce specific species of algae. Once you can show that, you have some control.

That gives you at least one cause.........

Regards,
Tom Barr

[dragonladylea]

Just had to chime in here, My Mg levels have been at 1600 for almost 6 months, and my Bryopsis doesnt seem to mind at all. In fact I didnt lose any of my algae the good or the bad.

[billsreef]

There is a correlation between Mg and Ca in solution. Higher levels of Mg allow higher levels of Ca to be in solution. This could lead to higher alkalinity and higher pH.

[Plantbrain]

I've found lots of Bryopsis in intertidal sloughs and regions where salinity(and Ca/Mg levels) are higher in Florida.

It's very tough to tweak things to favor one vs the other with this species/genus.

Pick or herbivore.
Picking always works and keeps things very clean.
Gardeners call it "pruning" and "weeding".



Regards,
Tom Barr

[vessxpress1]

I've been following that thread closely. I am pleased to see all the positive results coming from this but I have not tried it myself because I am also skeptical.

I've been trying to deal with it for about a year now. The stuff is impossible to kill. I finally tore my whole tank down and cooked all the rock for 3 months. Replaced my entire substrate, only adding very little this time to make it nearly bare bottom. I've been running phosphate removers like crazy and my Merk-Deltec kit shows barely a trace of phosphate at .0015 ppm. My skimmer seems to be doing a decent job. I only have 3 fish. I use Kent nitrate sponge for nitrates.

After 3 months, I put the tank back together in March and it looked great for a couple months. Then the bryopsis started creeping back again. Here we are near the end of June and I'm on the verge of crisis again. I have an acan lord that didn't have any on it's rock.
Eventually, a small tuft started growing on this rock. I can tear it completely off to bear rock and within a week, it's back and about an inch long.

For small, isolated areas, I've used kalk paste. It will wipe it out but it also will burn corals if you touch them with it.

When I was cooking my rock in the tubs, some of the bryopsis was still surviving after a MONTH in total darkness. It took a long time to clear all the rock but I knew it would still be present in the tank.

They type I have starts covering my rock as a short fuzz. Then it thickens. I don't believe anything I have in the tank eats it. Pruning it is almost pointless until it grows very thick. I even have some type of algae growing in strands on my back glass. I really can't figure it out. I'm using pure RO/DI water with no phosphate, 0 TDS out my Typhoon III.

The first person to come out with a real cure for bryopsis will enjoy an early retirement. I would pay dearly for a cure.

I just fear that even if raising the Mg wipes it out temporarily, that it may be able to create new strains and become resistant to it. Or, once you drop your Mg, it's right back. I know I've had mine over 1400 for a while and it doesn't affect it at all.

I'm interested to hear the 6 month updates from these people.

[Plantbrain]

Well, if you do a quarantine like fish, then you can avoid a lot of the noxious species.

I think many assume that algae do not have resting resistive spores that last months, much like a tougher than nails seed that waits all fall, winter till the spring rains come to bloom.

I closely inspect my species before I add them, let them grow and see what pops up.

I could do a selectivity study on Bryopsis
for various herbicide/salt, biocides/alternative methods for impacts and effects.

If you folks pay me enough, I can generally find a way. I just have little issue with the weed personally.

I prune weekly anyway, but it's with plants I like.
Some others have pestered me, but I just hack them back here and there. Eventually they give up.

If you have a 240 gal sps reef, then that's a lot of work, but that's the trade off.

FW plants folks are so cheap and do not drop the $ into things that reef folks do, so it's not much of a market, however, I think I should pursue some of the more pesky reef algae.

I am leary about killing corals and inverts, so a source of cheap test subjects will be useful since they will also be in the tank. Most folks spend a lot of $ and thus do not want to risk anything when killing noxious algae selectively.

We have the same problems in FW and with weed and perhaps more so. We want to selectively kill the weed sand not hurt any non targets, that's essentially what I do.

I have a simple electrolyosis unit.
I am using it to kill tubers in hydro soil(no non targets other than anaerobic bacteria in there.
Also sonication for some specific weeds with thin leaves.

Interestingly, no one has ever done herbicide testing on seaweeds, only manual removal, Chlorine tablets, tarps etc.

I plan on doing that ands seeing what types fo selectivity I get with some seaweeds like Caulpera, Kelps, Dictoyota, Cladophora, Batophora, Wineglass, Cyano and Bryopsis etc.

I guess that means I have to shut up and not tell anyone what it is and sell it huh?

Well, I've helped folks in the hobby for about 30 years, so I suppose I am due

Got to find something that will work first though.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[bhdmc]

I am trying this method as of now. Mg levels are around 1550PPM. So far all my fishs, SPS coral and Clams are fine. The only problem are my Yellow Scroll coral which is turning pale and my Zoo's which are also turning pale. It only has been a week so far. The bryopsis are still green. I am using Kent Marine Tech-M. I am keeping my finger cross this will work. Like everyone one else, I have tried everything to rid this pest.

[bhdmc]

I wanted to give an update on my treatment on bryopsis. The bryopsis is gone after a few weeks of maintaining the Mag. above 1500PPM. Thanks You for this thread!

[Plantbrain]

Mg SO4 is a lot cheaper and easier to use than a commericial Mg supplement product , also known as epsom salt.

See if the weed comes back after you reduce the Mg back.
To make sure the Mg works, you need to repeat and induce and repeat induce back and forth several times.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[piercho]

Checking the referenced thread, which is getting pretty long, Mg Sulfate has become the recommended source because Mg Chloride does not seem to "work". You'd be adding a butt-ton of S04 (along with the Mg) to bring Mg from 1200-1300 PPM up to 1600 PPM. Many people may be starting from less than 1200 PPM.

I wonder if the percieved effect (Bryopsis dies) has anything to do with sulfate reduction by bacteria?

[jmanrow]

Here is a DIY Magnesium Additive using Mg SO4, that has been posted at Oz Reef for some time now.

http://ozreef.org/diy_plans/additives/magnesium.html

[billsreef]

Originally posted by piercho
Checking the referenced thread, which is getting pretty long, Mg Sulfate has become the recommended source because Mg Chloride does not seem to "work".

Interesting. At the start the claim was to use MgCl, not MgSO4.

[jmanrow]

Well... which one works? MgCl or MgSO4? Both? neither? I was ready to try MgSO4 when I saw Plantbrain and Piercho's posts, now I'm not sure. Anyone have comments on this?

[piercho]

I'd trudge through the currently 14-page thread and make your own call. If you start reading on page 13, seems like the concensus is currently MgSO4.

I use Randy Farley's recipe with a combination of epsom salt and dow flake to keep my Mg up. That recipe does not wreck havock with your sulfate ion ratio like using epsom salt alone does. I've never raised Mg above 1400 PPM, however.

What these people are doing is raising Mg very high, 1600 and above. You have to use a LOT of epsom salt to get that much rise in Mg. Look at Table 5 of Randy's article. To get a 300 PPM rise in Mg using epsom salt you will raise the level of sulfate by 44%. So to get to 1600 from 1250 (typical, sometimes even lower) you will increase the abundance of sulfate ions by more than 50%! That's why I'm wondering if sulfate-reducing bacteria are playing a role in the collapse of the Bryopsis.

[Plantbrain]

I doubt Cl will have much effect vs SO4.
Mg is quite another matter.
There's some speculation, that high Mg may be able to stunt some species of plants.

But, doing this and the impacts on other macros might need to be addressed. Basically, how selective is it for Byropsis is the question that needs posed as well.

Might be okay, stunt the noxious algae, but no harm relatively to the corals or other desirable macros.

Getting somewhere in the long term should be a goal to resolve of noxious algae, not just a short term guess and hoping it works.

A better understanding allows a lot more utility.

It might work, I dunno, but without some confirmation, you really cannot say. Same deal with the MgCl2 vs MgSO4.
You can test to Cl vs SO4 effects for that also.

Something happened, but what specifically and why are quite different than just the observation. It's just a one time correlation at this point.

Since folks state that they can get rid of it this way, take some from another tank and add it, let it infest well, then try this method again, repeat several times.

Since, if you are confident of this control method, you can get rid of it after an infestation easy with this method as claimed.

Are you willing to testthe theory?
You should be if you feel strongly about things.

I do not have any Byropysis to kill right now
I'd try it otherwise.

You need to be able to induce Byropsis and or have a starter culture on hand and be able to grow it consistently(generally not hard for many with an infestation) to test several things like this.

Still, if the method works, then getting rid of it should not be an issue, why do not more try this?

They are not interesting in testing their tanks, unless they have no other choice and rarely if ever repeat noxious algae test on purpose. That's just not their goal, so we end up with little testing, lots of speculation.

If you feel strong about the method, and confident it works, it should be repeatable.

Showing algae control methods vs just having a nice a tank are two different goals though.


Regards,
Tom Barr