success rate with fish is horrible!!!

[baxterdawg]

Okay, I have about had it. please tell me that I am not alone.

I have been incorporating a quarantine tank into my operation in the hopes of improving the likelyhood of success. But, I have had more fish deaths than when I had salt tanks and did not use a QT. Now, I will acknowledge that the first 2 of my 3 incidents were related to me. However, my 3 day old flasher wrasse just bit it for no apparent reason! All parameters are good, fish appeared ideal at the LFS, and the fish eat good the first day.

So in total I am at a 57% rate of success with 7 fish over 6 months. Should I just ban myself from buying more fish or am I just in a slump.

[McBeck]

Are you losing fish while they are in QT? What's in the QT tank w/ the fish (rocks, PVC, other critters etc)? When you say "all parameters are good," which parameters are you testing and what are your exact numbers? Sometimes test kits expire and give bad readings. Have you had the water tested at the LFS? What brand are your test kits and how old are they?

[JxMetal]

I don't QT, but before I buy I totally examine a fishes behavior and make sure it eats dry food. Then I get it home do a 1 hour acclimation and put it in. I've only lost 2 fish besides the couple jumpers.

[trottman]

i once read that LFS loose 1 in 4 fish.

this was about 4-5 years ago... i would say that the odds have improved a little bit, but saltwater fish are made to live in the ocean, not glass boxes. (except for clownfish that is)

[saltyunderground]

Do you have an agressive fish that might be a problem to the newbies?

[TWINPEAKS]

I have lost every fish that I have purchased since I started QT. the fish and some that where in QT for 3 weeks eating great just up and died.I think QT. adds to the stress of the fish JMO.

[baxterdawg]

The only fish losses have been associated with the QT. The tank is a 10 gal and has about two handfuls of substrate that went in to originally cycle the small filter, there is also a piece of PVC and a few small rocks that also came out of the display. When I mentioned good parameters, I meant that nitrates were ~15ppm, SG = 1.023, tank was cycled, temp = 74-76. The kits I have are new Aquarium Pharma. kits and no I have not had the LFS run tests, but that is a good suggestion.

I have chalked up my flasher wrasse to Trottman's comment of the risk of maintaining a microenvironment.

As for other inhabitants, I purchased a Coral Beauty and the wrasse at the same time. Both were put QT together and neither ever displayed any form of aggression.

Of course there are alot of factors that can potentially influence the success of obtaining new fish, but I am hopeful that this has just been a string of bad luck. As I alluded to, I can point to reasons that caused the 2 prior fish deaths, one was a high SG problem, totally my fault.

I guess I am just bummed, because I hate to lose any livestock.

thanks for the help

[Shooter7]

Especially in a tank that is the size of a 10g, you have to closely watch your parameters, particularly things like ammonia and pH. The QT shouldn't have anything in it but a heater, maybe a pump, thermometer, some pieces of PVC and that's about it. No substrate, no rock. I would keep the temp closer to 80 myself, that's what I run mine at. I watch the ammonia because even in a tank that I have some biofiltration in like a seeded sponge or something, I will still get some ammonia climb. A ten gal can go bad in a big hurry. You really need to have test kits so you can frequently check the water in your tank, and have some water already made up so you can do a quick change if your test results look bad.

[nematode]

these are my opinions perhaps not shared by all.

When A fish first comes from the fish store is the time one is most likely to lose it.
They have likely been shipped around and moved to several different environments in a small time period.

You absolutely want the environment for them to go into when they first arrive in to be top notch.

Do not create a QT on the cheap! It should be a tank with equipment of similar
quality to your main tank, and it should get equal or greater attention than your main tank
if you are going to go the QT way.

I think there are generally two ways to do QTs
1) set up an isolation tank which is of high quality and place fish you feel are in good condition at the time of sale in to aclimate. The main reason for this type of tank is to
insure that you don't infect your main tank with some god awful disease.

2) set up a disease treatment tank which is solely dedicated to treatment of diseases.
This type of tank is the most difficult to maintain. Drugs (antibiotics, anti-fungal agent,
anti-parasitics all create havoc on a system). I think these are tanks that one sets up for desperate attempts to save fish, but not as permenant home fixtures.

This is what I recommend. It all depends on the space you have:

make your Q tank at least a 20G, perhaps larger if you will Q tangs and the like.

Put in a fair amount of live rock, and have reasonable lighting.

Set up the tank as you would any other tank, cycling ...

Purchase a few permenant residents for the tank. A few snails, and a pijama cardinal, or
a pair of percula ownfish?, or a lawmower blenny, or a jawfish, or a red firefish. One or two relatively docile fish that wil maintain a biosystem. These are fish that will be your frontline soldiers. you must be prepared to sacrifice them.

Keep the tank running all the time even if you only purchase 2 fish a year. Keep the tank in good condition.
When you purchase a new fish, place them in this tank and feed them until you are confident they are healthy. They won't feel out of place because they will be moving into an established biosystem that will have algae, small pods, etc. to feed on. If you are careful in the fish you select from your local store, you should do well with this approach.
My philosophy is that oncee you need to pull out drugs, its basically over and you are just praying to save your fish.

BUT for those times when you need to try desperation approaches,

Have enough "junk" live rock in one of your tanks, so that if you need to set up an emergency treatment 10 g tank, that you can grab a few pieces and set up a biologically functional tank in a half an hour.
Remember that any non-hazardous porous rock that has been in a live tank for a few months or so is LIVE ROCK. If you have a 55 g, and you grab a few pieces of junk live rock, toss it in a 10 g tank, add water from the main tank ( a bonus 20% water change for your main tank) , a heater and a powerhead, you have what is likely to be a reasonably stable biological system. A fish can likely be treated with levamisole (for gut parisites), copper for oodinium or ick, an antibiotic/mercurachrome paste ( for wounds) or even with marcyn II for certain bacterial infections without ruining the biological system you've created. For other more foolish acts like using chloramphenicol, you are basically treating fish in the absence of a biological filter.


Over the courcse of 30 years I've had salt water tanks, I don't think I saved more than 1 out of 10 fish tank go into an "intensive care tank", but occasionally it does work.
Act EARLY in the disease course (this is really hard to do, especially if it will take a yeoman effort just to catch the fish from the main tank).

Toss the live rock after treatment and add some new porous rock to your main tank or regular QT. Take notes so that next time you act you can look back and see what you did.

Other helpful acts:.
Dips can sometimes be helpful- fresh water, or ..other more poisonous chemicals like paraformaldehyde dips can be helpful for certain parasites.

[nematode]

these are my opinions perhaps not shared by all.

When A fish first comes from the fish store is the time one is most likely to lose it.
They have likely been shipped around and moved to several different environments in a small time period.

You absolutely want the environment for them to go into when they first arrive in to be top notch. If you are putting them into a system that needs to be checked every 12 hrs to make sure its not going out of wack, then you are likely to be putting your fish into a much worse environment than your main tank.

Do not create a QT on the cheap! It should be a tank with equipment of similar
quality to your main tank, and it should get equal or greater attention than your main tank
if you are going to go the QT way.

I think there are generally two ways to do QTs
1) set up an isolation tank which is of high quality and place fish you feel are in good condition at the time of sale in to aclimate. The main reason for this type of tank is to
insure that you don't infect your main tank with some god awful disease.

2) set up a disease treatment tank which is solely dedicated to treatment of diseases.
This type of tank is the most difficult to maintain. Drugs (antibiotics, anti-fungal agent,
anti-parasitics all create havoc on a system). I think these are tanks that one sets up for desperate attempts to save fish, but not as permenant home fixtures.

This is what I recommend. It all depends on the space you have:

make your Q tank at least a 20G, perhaps larger if you will Q tangs and the like.

Put in a fair amount of live rock, and have reasonable lighting.

Set up the tank as you would any other tank, cycling ...

Purchase a few permenant residents for the tank. A few snails, and a pijama cardinal, or
a pair of percula ownfish?, or a lawmower blenny, or a jawfish, or a red firefish. One or two relatively docile fish that wil maintain a biosystem. These are fish that will be your frontline soldiers. you must be prepared to sacrifice them.

Keep the tank running all the time even if you only purchase 2 fish a year. Keep the tank in good condition.
When you purchase a new fish, place them in this tank and feed them until you are confident they are healthy. They won't feel out of place because they will be moving into an established biosystem that will have algae, small pods, etc. to feed on. If you are careful in the fish you select from your local store, you should do well with this approach.
My philosophy is that oncee you need to pull out drugs, its basically over and you are just praying to save your fish.

BUT for those times when you need to try desperation approaches,

Have enough "junk" live rock in one of your tanks, so that if you need to set up an emergency treatment 10 g tank, that you can grab a few pieces and set up a biologically functional tank in a half an hour.
Remember that any non-hazardous porous rock that has been in a live tank for a few months or so is LIVE ROCK. If you have a 55 g, and you grab a few pieces of junk live rock, toss it in a 10 g tank, add water from the main tank ( a bonus 20% water change for your main tank) , a heater and a powerhead, you have what is likely to be a reasonably stable biological system. A fish can likely be treated with levamisole (for gut parisites), copper for oodinium or ick, an antibiotic/mercurachrome paste ( for wounds) or even with marcyn II for certain bacterial infections without ruining the biological system you've created. For other more foolish acts like using chloramphenicol, you are basically treating fish in the absence of a biological filter.


Over the courcse of 30 years I've had salt water tanks, I don't think I saved more than 1 out of 10 fish tank go into an "intensive care tank", but occasionally it does work.
Act EARLY in the disease course (this is really hard to do, especially if it will take a yeoman effort just to catch the fish from the main tank).

Toss the live rock after treatment and add some new porous rock to your main tank or regular QT. Take notes so that next time you act you can look back and see what you did.

Other helpful acts:.
Dips can sometimes be helpful- fresh water, or ..other more poisonous chemicals like paraformaldehyde dips can be helpful for certain parasites.

[Kathy55g]

Nice post. What do you think about sponge filters? They are certainly cheaper than live rock, so if you have to trash it, you are not at a big loss. They can be kept "live" in the sump of your main display until needed. I've tried this with great results for QT. But I don't have a lot of experience here.

[baxterdawg]

Newest negative development,

The coral Beauty in QT is hurtin!!!

Yesterday was eating, today not. Swimming at top of tank, looks stressed and looks like it may have beginning stages of ick or something.

I checked ammonia and had a some detectible amt (0. 25 ppm) and a 8.1 pH. I did a 50% water change with water from the display and have stabilized the pH and reduced ammonia to undetectable on my test kit. I added some CopperSafe to the tank, but it is several years old. Anyone know if this stuff goes bad??

This stinks!!!!!!

[saltyunderground]

Dump question, but... do you have a power head in the tank to make sure it is being oxygenated?

[baxterdawg]

I am running an old protein skimmer that I used to use on my 55 gal exactly for this reason. The pump is not great and the venturi formation of bubbles is less than optimal for skimming, but I am assuming that is aerating effeciently.

[chadfarmer]

add a small power head to the top of the water for surface agitation

sounds like it doesnt have any air


dump a cup in the water a few times and see if he stops


where have you being getting fish ?

[saltyunderground]

I'm with Chad, add a powerhead.

[baxterdawg]

powerhead added and preliminary results look promising. The fish has started to seek out its "normal" rock structure in the lower corner of the tank and is periodically swimming out into the tank. In other words, he is not swimming at the top of the tank and appears alittle more alert than it was.

I am still holding my breath.

[McBeck]

Don't hold your breath too long or you'll be doin' the same dance as your coral beauty!

As everyone suggested, a small tank will go south quickly. You'll want plenty of pre-mixed water available for regular water changes. Ammonia and nitrate will build fast in a QT tank. Surface agitation is very important to keeping the water oxygenated.

If I were you, I would not add the rocks from QT back into the display if a copper-based product was used in the QT tank. The rocks will leach the copper back into the display and this will be bad for your inverts.

Good luck & keep us posted!

[baxterdawg]

I want to say thanks to everyone that chimed in to offer some advice.

As of 2:30 pm, the coral beauty has began eating some formula one flake and acting more alert, which is a dramatic turn around from 9:30 this morning. It is a good thing I was able to work from home today, or I may have lost my fish.

it hard to say if any one thing solely contributed to the improvement, maybe it was a combination of both the surface agitation and 50% water change. hard to believe the copper would have worked that fast.

Somehow I need to find a place to have a bigger QT system. For now, I'll have to make the best of this. Thanks again everyone.