Bare Bottom tanks good or bad?

[shane 1111]

hi Eric do you think BB tanks a beneficial in any way compared to DSB systems?
some people think that since we can not recreate nature that we shouldn't try to.
people say it is better to go BB with sps corals

[Steven Pro]

There are many different ways to skin a cat.

I like DSB's and don't particularly like the look of a BB tank, nor do I believe it is the panacea that some BB advocate promote, but they can work just like many other methodologies.

[nepuck]

I used to have a DSB, I battled algae constantly. The system was very sensitive to adding fish and other new life. Eventually it crashed. I went BB 2 years ago and so far ir's bullet proof. Algae problems are no more. My levels are consistant. The (reef) tank can handle a higher load of fish and is very stable.

The theory is that tanks are closed systems. Most of what we add becomes waste, slowly building up until the tank pukes. BB's are quite efficient at removing waste. SPS tend to like water w/ a low load of nutients. BB's help provide that type of environment.

IMO BB's are wonderful, they are less complicated. I've done both and I spend much less time on maintainence w/ my BB than I did w/ a DSB. The rock-scaping in mine does a good job of limiting the BB look. I don't have people asking, "where is the sand?" One drawback is you can't have animals that live in the sand (Gobies, etc.)

[EricHugo]

I wrote about this in a recent edition of ReefKeeing magazine.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by EricHugo
I wrote about this in a recent edition of ReefKeeing magazine.

In case you can't find it, I believe the article Eric is thinking was published in the October 2004 issue of Reefkeeping. My how time does fly! The Old Becomes New, Yet Again: Sandbeds and Vodka

[nepuck]

The old does become the new. It's nice to know that even experts are anecdotal. I would like to see more actual scientific info. comparing the two forms of reefkeeping. Rather than just personal opinion.

One main difference between today's BB's and yesterday's is the amount of flow. BB's today have huge volumes of water flow. When this idea is implemented there is little or no ditritus on the bottom (RE: "The Old Becomes the New,,,"). Those who dive in the ocean have experienced the great volumes of water movement. This is one advantage of BB's; DSB's are unable to utilize this idea well because of the resulting sandstorm and soon to follow degradation of SPS tissue. As far as the article stating that BB rockwork looks poor and is prone to slides; That applies to any tank not just BB's.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[EricHugo]

Well, if you want data, read Rob Toonen's article over at advanced aquarist. This months.

[EricHugo]

Also, I have a whole ot of sdata I presented last month on a critical comparison between berlin, jaubert and ATS methods of reeefkeping on over 100 tannks an some 8-15 years of data - and the only tanks that fared wrost were the bare bottom ones - it was all the rage back in the early 1990's tilll we all realized that they were a maintenance nightmare, were sterile, unstable, required regular siphoning of detrtius. Yeah, they work...but like I saiid, I've got a lemon yellow Porites on Green Montipora for a year no under a an 18" fluorescent lamp in a ten gallon tank - anythings possible, and I think I have even written a line on my book and n many articles. There's just smarter and easier ways, and it depends on what you want to do, what you like, etc. Me persionally - and you did ask, btw - I'd never run another bare bottomed reef in my life. I thought they looked hideous.

[Reefvet]

Originally posted by EricHugo
Well, if you want data, read Rob Toonen's article over at advanced aquarist. This months.

Here's a great line from that article:

"Our results suggest that stocking level of the aquarium, and any animal deaths, have a much greater effect on the overall water quality than the specific design of the aquarium set-up you chose to follow."

[Rod Buehler]

(:sarcasm you mean it is possible to keep SPS and a DSB? (ff sarcasm Ive heard a few people say that it is impossible (LOL) .

I think youll hear that sand bed people will agree that there are many ways to set up a tank, and they can all work (some may take more labor, but they work).

The way I see it (and tell it) is many of the people that have been around and have seen all of the changes frome under gravel filters, to bare bottom, to thin sand, to bare bottom, to plenums and to Deep Sand Beds, are all keeping those sand beds. The people that are ditching their sand for bare bottoms are (mostly) the people that started their systems after sand beds became popular and they read bits and peices of post from the sand bed people and bits and peices from the bare bottom people.. Sometimes the methods wont work to well when mixed.

IMO, some of the reasons they are finding that thier sand beds arent working are

1) The went to a store and saw bagged "live sand" and thought ""hey, I read that I need live sand and here it is".. They never give/gave a second thought about seeding it with critters and scoops of sand from HEALTHY sand beds. Not to mention that the grain size of that sand is way too large to use as a majority of the sand bed. (the bagged "live sand people shot themselves in the foot with that bright idea.. They are probably selling less sand now days)

2) they are killing many of the sand bed creatures spawnings with UV, and ozone

3) they are starving the sand bed critters by using filter socks and turning detritus into disolved organics where its difficult to remove, instead of letting the skimmer and filter feeders remove it before its broken down.

4) They let the LFS sell them some sand sifting stars or sand sifting gobies to "clean" their sand

5) they thought that the live rock would be more than enough to seed the sand.

6) They used sand that had too large of a grain size Its very hard to find a powdery sand these days. Even the good ole carib sea aragamax is getting too coarse. I found a few old bags. There is a pretty big difference. I beleive ESV and southdown/oldcastle are still very fine.

7) They stock with too many fish of the types that prey upon all of the little sand bed critters.

8) they didnt have enough patience to let the critters do the work, and they decided to "clean" the bed themselves.

9) they dont have enough water movement, and when they add more, it blows the sand. They dont have enough patients to let the sand settle where it will settle (and it WILL settle). Then they say that you cant have enough flow for an SPS system and a DSB.

10)They think since they have a DSB that they can skimp on a skimmer. The BB people usually upgrade their skimmers after going BB. Maybe if the upgrade came first, they wouldnt have ditched the sand.

11) they dont feed enough (ramped up slowly)


Just my opinions, and again.. More than one way to eat a Reeses (I dont care for the "skin a cat saying" ;p )

[shane 1111]

thanks a lot Rod Buehler. very good points.
i feed my tank a lot and have never had a problem. and i have 2 skimmers on my 50g tank. i love my sand.

[nepuck]

Eric,

Where can I find the 8-15 years of data comparing BB's, Berlin, Jaubert, etc.?

[MiddletonMark]

Great points, Rod.

Though with Joe as a SPS forum Mod and his great threads on water movement, water quality, etc ... it's hard to ignore that one of the nicest, well photographed Acropora dominated tanks on this forum has a healthy DSB in it.
JB NY's tank, if you haven't seen it recently
He feeds well, too

BB ... some see it as a panacea, a quick-fix for their problems.
But, like anything in this hobby - you're not getting a balanced system short-term.

I do say, it does force import/export and bioload to be a focus - which I think plenty in this hobby like to ignore as much as possible. I see enough pictures [or in person] reef tanks that to my eye, remind me of the LFS with fish stocking density.

I bet some [self included], having learned some lessons about husbandry from barebottom, could run a much more successful DSB tank as well [we'll see with the one downstairs ]

As we are aware - while RC may have more long-term reefkeepers than the real population ... but many are into this hobby for a short term of problem-battling before they give up. This now serves as a `last ditch' for some I think ... though probably as unsuccessful as the prior methods [self not included].

--

My reality ... I must admit, my Acropora/Montipora dominated tank has been substrate-free the last year, which for the last 8-10 months has been a joy to me. The corals are growing/colored well to my eye and seem easy to keep healthy, the fish are nicely colored and healthy seeming, and I could care less if it fufills anyone else's aesthetic happiness other than mine [and my wife's]

Running such a system has taught me a lot about running balanced import/export, and how to feed well while doing that. I've upgraded my skimmer [and learned to tweak it], reconsidered my fish stocking, and learned a whole bunch in the process.

That said - any `redevotion to the tank' often can yield good results ... and I'd factor that, along with increased experience [as well as `aged rock/livestock/setup'] as being the primary reasons I've found success with this method.

The livestock is healthy, it fits my setup well and to me is an interesting aesthetic form. I see my tank [at least at current size] as about as representative of the reef as my small flower garden out back represents the prairie.

Then again, a larger garden, a bigger tank ... I may think different.

[And nevermind the coral prop tub I have in the basement, set up almost 6 months ago using much of the relevant points Rod mentions ... stocked so far with two montipora frags - I like trying different methods, I think I've learned a lot about aquaria husbandry from each method I've used, including the unskimmed tank across the room from the BB tank]

Anyway - wanted to `counterpoint' a little, yet to agree in many ways. I dare say, perhaps for different setups, livestock, or reefkeepers - different methods might make sense.

The `popularity contest' or `trendiness' that online reef communities can be [along with great sources of information/friends] blows everything out of proportion IMO.
But, this too shall pass; as has been true for the last few millenia, thankfully.

I might lack the bio and chem classes that are useful in this hobby, but my graduate work in Anthropology has been quite a boon, seriously. Couldn't have afforded the hobby while in grad school, but I see one pretty intriguing dissertation in modern cultural anthropology here [and could have taken marine/bio minor then ... oh well, plenty of fun learning on my own ]

Provided healthy livestock, to each their own.
Just be wary of bandwagons - whichever direction they're going.

[EricHugo]

Send me an email and if your mailbox is big enough, I'll send you the presentation with my dtata - at the least, I can send you the summary sldies, though without the explanation they will mean a lot less to you.

[Kiah]

hello Eric,
I've been following the thread closely and would br interested in seeing that information. Michele.D.Wronski at saint-gobain dot com.

Thank you

[orangekush4]

Man they are both good ways,its on the reefer that the tank looks the way it doas.I have BB and i love the way it looks,i can grow sps and zoa on the bottom on the glass.I have seen in person many tanks in Holland and in Germany that are BB and they will put the tanks in US to sham.You cant even see the bottom of my tank becuse it is coverd in ZOA and SPS.OH not to forget them JAPenes tanks that are BB.

[ahchung]

Is there any easy way to measure the healthness of a DSB?

[marilynrn711]

Whadya think Dr. Ron would say about this.

I like your ideas Rod.

So much confusiion about sand beds ---

[davejnz]

BB is a fad,after enough people start having problems with the system,it will pass.I also have noticed a much higher mortality rate with snails/corals in my BB system than in my DSB reef.I've never lost a single coral in the 3yrs that tank has been running.
I disagree with the popular method(SPS forum) of running a BB setup with just a big skimmer,no macro fuge,and light or no feeding at all.I feel a DSB/macro fuge in the sump should be used to help stabilize the system and provide nutrient export.

[nepuck]

Originally posted by EricHugo
[B]Also, I have a whole ot of sdata I presented last month on a critical comparison between berlin, jaubert and ATS methods of reeefkeping on over 100 tannks an some 8-15 years of data - and the only tanks that fared wrost were the bare bottom ones - it was all the rage back in the early 1990's tilll we all realized that they were a maintenance nightmare, were sterile, unstable, required regular siphoning of detrtius.

Eric,

I got your data (e-mail) but it has no data comparing BB's to DSB's. Where is data stating BB's are, ",,maintainence nightmare, sterile, unstable, etc."?


Bill

[sihaya]

Dude... DSBs are cool. You can have so much life in there! Why would you want to miss out on all that? I'm really hoping to develope a great sand bed with lots of little critters in it.

[MiddletonMark]

Perhaps someone here can supply this fellow [in this forum] with a good guide on what to do?

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=645347

Seems like much of the advice he's gotten is somewhat contradicted by Rod and others posts ... IMO illustrative of some of the complaints about DSB's by some [incomplete, contradictory information how to set them up]

[G-money]

The type of bottom (or lack of) has absolutely no bearing on whether your tank will be successful or not (good or bad).

HOW you maintain your tank will have everything to do with "good or bad". That's to say, questions like this make it seem like the substrate choice is going to determine the fitness of the tank. That's silly. We all know the absolute requirements of corals and none of those requirements are in any way dependent on the presence of a sandbed.

The question might be better put "how can I best maintain a BB tank?" No tank is doomed to fail (or succeed) because of what's on the bottom. It's time to realize this. BB isn't a fad...it's a completely relevant approach to a reef tank. It can't be run the same as a DSB tank, though.

[photobarry]

Well said!

Think about what corals need in a closed system. Clean water, appropriate light levels and water flow. If you are able to maintain those three variables, the rest should take care of itself.

[diverrad]

Yes JBNY has an absolutely amazing tank but did you ever see his fish room and all the equipment he needs and additives to keep that DSB going ?

Some say BB tanks are ugly, I know I did but after taking out my sandbed I changed my mind I actually prefer it but then again I like things clean and neat, like it or not to me my tank is an interesting piece of furniture. Some experts have a problem with DSB and some with BB whatever man as long as you like it. for SPS I do think a BB is the better choice. As far as using a fuge with macro, you don't need one fuges are for removing nutrients a proper BB tank has none.