Are we running our reefs too hot?

[Habib]

Calcification rates were measured at different times of
year, and therefore different temperatures, over a period
of 11 years from 1991 to 2001. Nineteen separate experiments
were made on Galaxea and nine experiments on
Dendrophyllia. The distribution of calcification rates with
temperature is shown in Fig. 2. In both Galaxea and
Dendrophyllia the maximum calcification rates appear to
occur in the region of 25 C and the distributions are
similar. The change in calcification rate with temperature
appears to be normally distributed as can be seen in Fig. 2,
in which a Gaussian curve has been fitted to the data for
Galaxea. In both species minimum calcification rates, at
the lower and upper ends of the temperature range, were
significantly different (P<0.0001) to maximum calcification
rates. The maximumand minimumcalcification rates
measured for Galaxea were 1.24 and 0.18 lmol Ca g
skeleton)1 h)1, respectively, and for Dendrophyllia the
rates were 1.16 and 0.24 lmol Ca g skeleton)1h)1,
respectively. Maximum calcification rates for Galaxea










long-term laboratory experiments (Clausen and Roth,
1975; Jokiel and Coles, 1977; Coles and Jokiel, 1978;
Kajiwara et al., 1995). These studies found maximum
calcification rates to occur at around 26–27 C in a range
of zooxanthellate corals. This temperature range is
slightly higher than the temperature at which maximum
calcification (25 C) occurred in the present study.

[Bomber]

But they don't say what corals those were (range of corals) and now we know that different zoox have the most effect.

[shred5]

Originally posted by Bomber
But they don't say what corals those were (range of corals) and now we know that different zoox have the most effect.

Hey Bomber

Where can I find the info on Different Zooxanthalae and calcification rates? ? I would be very interested in reading this... Is there any info on the net?

Dave

[Bomber]

I don't have a clue Dave. Try googling some key words and see if you get anything.

[shred5]

Originally posted by Bomber
I don't have a clue Dave. Try googling some key words and see if you get anything.

Ok thanks... Lots of times stuff like this aint even on line.... I will look.. thats why I asked...

thanks
Dave

[Brad A.]

Its nice to see a useful, civil and respectful conversation occuring.


I have no doubt that the metabolism is slower at lower temps. The question formost on my mind, is, does the sps have fewer rates of rtn/stn or other demise at less than 80 f (where most sps users keep there tank)?

[Aquaduck]

Actual reef temperatures: http://rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm

Links to actual reef temperature seasonal data. Make an educated decision based on the actual reef temps your animals and corals were brought from.

[brentp]

Originally posted by Aquaduck
Actual reef temperatures: http://rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm

Links to actual reef temperature seasonal data. Make an educated decision based on the actual reef temps your animals and corals were brought from.

He says that the surface temperatures are the same as the temperatures at 100-300 feet. I find that a little hard to believe. I used to be an engineer on a large ship and when the ship was ballasted down it would lower it 10' or so into the water. This usually lowered the temperature of the water being pumped into cooling systems etc. by a couple degrees.

[Brad A.]

Originally posted by Aquaduck
Actual reef temperatures: http://rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm

Links to actual reef temperature seasonal data. Make an educated decision based on the actual reef temps your animals and corals were brought from.

This well known and contributes to the current practice of keeping acros at the higher temps.

We are considering that higher temps may in fact not be so great for acros.

Yes we are questioning, and trying to make an "educated" d
ecision.

[MiddletonMark]

And frankly, any `research' that calls others work `idiotic twaddle' and singles out others in the field by the name by the second paragraph .... I tend to question strongly.

If his data was so strong ... why the personal slams?
You don't need to put down people who you can prove are wrong ... unless for some reason you can't prove it.

Nevermind Brent's totally valid point that surface temperatures tell a very different story [at least in certain areas] from temps lower.

Seems like Walt Smith's experience with temps [as Brad brought up] and Dr. Shimek's are in opposition. For some reason, I trust the guy in Fiji telling me what water temp is, as he probably has actually been in the water there recently, and more often.

What temp corals `do better' in ... that's up for debate. But it seems like we have data sets that `don't jive'.

Wish I understood all the NOAA/etc monitoring buoys well enough to figure out what depth they're measuring ... and we could look at the monitoring stations ourselves. [anyone?]

[Bomber]

.
.
.
<---- Hello

[Aquaduck]

Originally posted by brentp
He says that the surface temperatures are the same as the temperatures at 100-300 feet. I find that a little hard to believe. I used to be an engineer on a large ship and when the ship was ballasted down it would lower it 10' or so into the water. This usually lowered the temperature of the water being pumped into cooling systems etc. by a couple degrees.

I believe that what Dr. Ron is referring to is the sample depth at which the satellite is taking the measurement from. So the temperature readings could have been up to 300' down or only 1' deep. I don't think he's saying the temperatue at 1' is the same at 300' that would be impossible.

[Aquaduck]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Wish I understood all the NOAA/etc monitoring buoys well enough to figure out what depth they're measuring ... and we could look at the monitoring stations ourselves. [anyone?]

Hey Bomber, care to help us out here?

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Wish I understood all the NOAA/etc monitoring buoys well enough to figure out what depth they're measuring ... and we could look at the monitoring stations ourselves. [anyone?]

Depends on buoy type, but here's a quote from this page:

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/bht.shtml

Sea surface temperature sensors are located at a depth of 1.5 meters for 10-m and 12-m buoys and at 1 meter for all 3-m and 6-m moored buoys. Further information on buoy hull types is available.

[Bomber]

And they are all different.

Satellite surface readings are just that, surface. They can't shoot down 20ft and tell you what it's like.

[Walt Smith]

Dear All,
It seems we are all at both ends of the field here. A couple of things to point out / remember. I am basing my comments on 16 years experience in the South Pacific (Tonga and Fiji) where the water temp for most of the year is mid 70’s at 8 ft – 20 ft. where most of this stuff is collected. During our summer months, if we are unfortunate to get hit by “hot spots� (traceable on the NOAA maps from their site) the temp can reach into the low 90’s and most of the coral dies or becomes bleached. In 1999 – 2000 season we lost over 90% of the entire coral reef on the eastern side of the Island and in most of the northern group (Yasawas) because of these hot spots which can be very discriminative with some reefs bleaching and less than a mile away everything is OK (or most of it) and there is really no telling where these spots will hit from year to year. Just last year I lost almost all of the corals on my farm racks spread over 7 different sites and while we monitored the temps bi-weekly some spots hit 92 (60 feet down) and others only hit 88 …. Still all died off. The racks we were able to move to much lower water had a higher success rate but some did still die. The racks we were not able to move had almost 100% mortality and the dance goes on from year to year as this now seems to be a regular annual occurring event. Dr. Bruce Carlson comes down almost every year to monitor some of the reefs he has labeled and we work together as he sees the same phenomena occurring while we all scratch our heads. It is because of his research and our daily observations that we are now beginning to understand more about the bleaching events that we can not control as we sadly just watch Mother Nature take its course.
Now, I’m just a dumb coral farmer and collector from Fiji and not a scientist but please consider these points.
• I have seen a lot of reference to Caribbean temps. How many corals do you have in your tank from this region …? None! How many species of Acro grow in this region …? Few compared to Fiji and Tonga which is where most of the corals in your tank come from.
• Fiji and Tonga are considered sub-tropical zones and you actually have to where a jacket in Tonga during the winter months and the water is freezing. I have spent up to 5 hours per day in this water and I usually come out blue.
• If you have managed to acclimate the corals in your tank to the low 80’s and they are doing fine then great I don’t doubt this but please remember that you are skating on the edge with this temperature thing.
• Your corals may grow faster but they have hollow legs and have accelerated growth leaving weaker structure. This may be acceptable in a home aquarium but reeks havoc on the reef as corals shoot up and break off under their own weight.
• I have nothing to gain by telling you the truth about the water temps where I have worked and lived for the past 16 years but you can argue that 80 – 82 works best for you and if it does great. However, I do think that some of the references to stability are also important points to consider.
• Will your corals die at 80 - 82 … probably not. Is it the natural conditions at which they occur in nature … defiantly not.
• Keep in mind that the corals from Indonesia are a different matter where the water IS warmer but I still recommend mid to high 70’s as a medium range to keep your mix well and happy.

Again, my opinions are just based on years of experience and I do not have any books to sell just friendly advice to offer.
Hope this helps clear a few things up or you can just take me out back and shoot me.
Forums like this are very good for sharing information and I hope you all do well with your captive reef at whatever temp works best for you.
Best to all,
Walt

[MiddletonMark]

Thanks for chiming in, Walt. Your experience is highly valued, and your participation a god-send IMO.

Next time you dive, think of us

[brentp]

It's always nice to get information from a valuable source.

[jedininja]

Thanks for the info! Can I ask a few questions? I am sure growth is lower at lower temps, but have you seen any effect on color? And if keeping the reef at mid 70s, would there be any affect on fish or other inverts?

I'm keeping my reef at a constant 79. If it were you, would you try to lower it more?

[Brad A.]

Thanks Walt! I enjoyed your presentation in Salt Lake and hope you'll come back again in the future.

Thanks for your input.
Brad

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Walt Smith
• I have seen a lot of reference to Caribbean temps. How many corals do you have in your tank from this region …? None!
Walt

Hey old man!

Actually all of them. and our temps, where our corals grow best anyway, are the same as yours.

Thank you!

[Walt Smith]

Hey Bomber!
Of course nobody can legally have Caribbean corals these days ... you are a rare exception.
Anyway, I have a feeling (from your response) that we know each other and you have me curious, please send me a private email since I am unable to send you one you private old dog you.
Cheers,
Walt

[Bomber]

landescaper

[galleon]

Interestingly enough, I have a friend's thesis open in front of me where, ~8,000 years ago, the mean sea surface temperature in the Solomon Islands, extracted from geochemical analysis of a fossil Porites lutea coral, in the core of the Western Pacific Warm Pool, was found to be about 27 degrees C. That's about 80.6 degrees F averaged over 16 years. The average low was about 26.5 and the average high was 27.6 degrees C. That's 79.7 and 81.7 degrees F, respectively.

[galleon]

Originally posted by Bomber
Hey old man!

Actually all of them. and our temps, where our corals grow best anyway, are the same as yours.

Thank you!

No, they are actually generally opposite (excluding stress bands from ultra-cold/ultra-hot anamolies). Tropical West Atlantic corals exhibit low density (fastest growth) bands during cooler months. Indo-Pacific and Red Sea corals exhibit the highest density bands during the coolest months.