DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas. - Page 21

hahnmeister · #**501** 05/12/2007, 02:01 AM

johns, as per reefgeek...
http://www.reefgeek.com/filtration/P...Skimmer_by_ATI

"For every 3 parts of water the pump pulls in 2 parts air for an efficiency rating of approximately 67%."

So 1000lph of air would suggest 1500lph of water. Of course, if there is more head pressure, the air goes down, and the water goes up.

Usually, less water flow is a good idea, but thats not always the case. If you design the skimmer around the pump to take advantage of this, or negate this, excessive water throughput can be nullified, or used to your advantage. Aquamedics have tons of water flow for the mere 600lph that each pump makes on the T5000 twin, but the distance between the pump's outlets and inlets is small...

...the result is that the water flow cancels itself out in such a tight loop at the bottom of the skimmer, so only bubbles end up going up the skimmer. Then the skimmer is so tall that the turbulence doesnt even reach that far up the 8" diameter, 6' tall body... by the time the bubbles reach the top, they are some of the nastiest, yet stable bubbles you can get. They have a long dwell time from the height, so each bubble is packed with proteins, and a bubble plate has nothing on the calm flow inside one of these things because of the extreme height: the turbulence gets left at the bottom. You just cant get a pump to move air at that depth unless you move alot of water like the Oceanrunners. Then again... you cant pack a 6' skimmer under your stand.

The other method is to space out the intake and outlet of the pumps on the skimmer. Like this one here...

The water flow of the pumps sucks the bubbles downwards from the outlet... giving bubbles an extremely long dwell time as they are suspended in the downdraft of all that water flow going down from the outlet to the pump intake.

Or, another design that wouldnt work unless the pump moved alot of water with the air woud be this one...

This skimmer was designed for the oceanrunner. If you used a Sicce or red dragon pump on such a design, the bubbles would just float up the wrong direction and the design would be useless, and the extended dwell time of the kreisel-like loop would be lost.

But, a pump with lots of water output like an Oceanrunner would be murder on a bubble-plate style skimmer. There wouldnt even be that many bubbles compared to all the upward jets that would be formed from the water flow... so you would need a much larger plate, or at least, larger/more holes. Like gtrestoration
said, you would swear you didnt even have a bubble plate.

Klaus, is the 1:1 ratio even possible? All the BKs seem to be 1 part air to 3 parts water at the best. It just seems like in order to draw in enough water to make the centrifugal pump work, you need at least the 2:3 ratio or the pump simply wont generate enough centrifugal force in the volute with the water to even suck in air... and that is the best out there (ati/tunze with 2:3), not to mention, only possible with very short skimmers.

kroe · #**502** 05/13/2007, 12:16 AM

Please post your venturi designs with sizes and pictures if you have a 5000 with a decent air/watt ratio.

I got mine running today and it pulls 55 scfh @ 115 watts (with nothing rubbing). This was the case with my DIY venturi that pulls 45 scfh @ 60ish watts on my OTP-3000. I then widened that venturi out from a 1/2" narrow section to a 5/8ths narrow section and it still didn't perform. Tried a totally different venturi design similar to scjfm's (not his RC name... but the closest I can come without looking it up

) and got it to 50 scfh @ 85 watts. The numbers are pretty much the same with 2-5 layers of PF4.

This thing is still moving a ton of water, so I know it has the potential... I just need the right venturi design.

hahnmeister · #**503** 05/13/2007, 01:43 AM

Can someone hook me up with the addy for that internet dealer that sells the uniseals really cheap? I cant find the addy right now off the top of my head.... Im hoping one of you guys remembers what Im talking about.

edit: nevermind, found it...
http://www.aussieglobe.com/uniseal3.htm

Creetin · #**504** 05/13/2007, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kroe
Please post your venturi designs with sizes and pictures if you have a 5000 with a decent air/watt ratio.

I got mine running today and it pulls 55 scfh @ 115 watts (with nothing rubbing). This was the case with my DIY venturi that pulls 45 scfh @ 60ish watts on my OTP-3000. I then widened that venturi out from a 1/2" narrow section to a 5/8ths narrow section and it still didn't perform. Tried a totally different venturi design similar to scjfm's (not his RC name... but the closest I can come without looking it up ) and got it to 50 scfh @ 85 watts. The numbers are pretty much the same with 2-5 layers of PF4.

This thing is still moving a ton of water, so I know it has the potential... I just need the right venturi design.

Ya might want to try reducing the diameter of the disk and mesh.
My disks are about 3/16ths smaller than the stock fan blade in diameter.

kroe · #**505** 05/13/2007, 10:50 AM

Creetin - is that with the stock 5000 impeller or with the maxflo impeller? The maxflo impeller is much larger than stock... maybe that's part of the problem.

Creetin · #**506** 05/13/2007, 11:00 AM

I would agree, I went a titch smaller than stock 5000 impeller because i had no bit that was the same size as the original.
Youre getting too much water because the max flow is just that, Designed to get max flow. JMO You should be under 60watts, and still slower flow. Its still alot of flow But cutting down the diameter should reduce flow. Just a guess though.
Sorry i have no pics of the way i modded mu imp, But it was pretty easy. Just cut down to the brass fitting and cut in sections till its all off. Then pop the brass fitting off. Gently.

kroe · #**507** 05/13/2007, 12:41 PM

Creetin - thanks for the tip, I'll try reducing the diameter. How many layers of PF4 did you use and what did you use for a venturi?

RGibson · #**508** 05/17/2007, 08:01 AM

Can any one tell me if any of the pumps can be used out of the water?

Creetin · #**509** 05/17/2007, 08:07 AM

Yes they can, I am running one now, and i seriously cant hear it. No heat either!! Just like the red dragons but cheaper. Great for flow pumps!

Creetin · #**510** 05/17/2007, 08:08 AM

Kroe did ya try reducing the diameter yet?

kroe · #**511** 05/17/2007, 10:21 AM

Yeah, it helped the wattage - went down to 60ish, but was only pulling 60 scfh. Still moving lots of water, I just can't convert the water movement to air movement.

I decided to take a different approach and am building a 3" diameter (about the same as the stock volute) shroud that is deeper than stock and has a 1" angled outlet like the BKs. I'll probably get that done this weekend.

Creetin · #**512** 05/17/2007, 10:29 AM

Good luck!
I think it will raise the watts further. On the 5000 i tried to make the mesh as big as it could go and just run water thru it. It was at 190 watts with a pf factor of .48!!
It def moved some water, and would compete with the 2905.
They are designed to move water and mesh modding them i think makes them move more than with the impeller on it. Wonder what a true needlewheel would do.

smjtkj · #**513** 05/17/2007, 10:36 AM

I built a needlewheel for it. It pulls less air and runs a little higher wattage.

Creetin · #**514** 05/17/2007, 10:39 AM

Hows the flow? Is it still high?

smjtkj · #**515** 05/17/2007, 10:42 AM

I am having the same flow issues, but not anything that a bubble plate won't solve.

quangtam7 · #**516** 05/17/2007, 04:00 PM

Numbers from Laguna 3000:
Stock impeller ~62 watts
Mesh wheel ~88 watts
Mesh wheel with air 49 watts

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Heoacg25NA

smjtkj · #**517** 05/17/2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quangtam7
Numbers from Laguna 3000:
Stock impeller ~62 watts
Mesh wheel ~88 watts
Mesh wheel with air 49 watts

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Heoacg25NA

How much air are u getting?

Creetin · #**518** 05/17/2007, 09:00 PM

I have decided not to use these for circ pumps, If anybody wants both for a great deal pm me.
2905 and 5000. New cond. I will put them in the B and S tonight.

kroe · #**519** 05/17/2007, 09:22 PM

Creetin: just curious - what made you go from "great for flow pumps" to selling them in a day?

Creetin · #**520** 05/17/2007, 09:30 PM

Well the 2905 is too much flow, and i can't devote 1.5 inch return line. Plus i added another 6100 to the mix and solved my flow issues. Plus i would have to had to change sumps.
I really don't want to rip into that again.
The 5000 would better suit my needs, which i still may keep on there. I am using it now.

RichConley · #**521** 05/18/2007, 10:04 AM

Quangtam, what are you using for an impellar on the 3000? Did you buy one of the maxflo impellars?

RGibson · #**522** 05/20/2007, 01:13 PM

creetin-could you show a pic of your skimmer with the laguna pump.

slavearm · #**523** 05/22/2007, 11:05 AM

Just wondering. I have a 30" Tall 12"Diameter skimmer I am building. I was planning on eheim 1260/2s because I do not want to use a bubble plate.

Are there any of these lagunas that could do 40LPM of air and not require a bubble plate in that large of a skimmer, or should I just stick with the 2 1260/2s?

Might be willing to try out one of these baddies.

Creetin · #**524** 05/22/2007, 11:16 AM

I have not use it yet, I was going to try it on a DAS ex3 which is the same as a H&S A200 3x2001. I would have to build a manifold and that may restrict and slow down the water flow but it will cost me a small fortune in 1 inch balvalve unions and unions.

mavgi · #**525** 05/22/2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by slavearm
Just wondering. I have a 30" Tall 12"Diameter skimmer I am building. I was planning on eheim 1260/2s because I do not want to use a bubble plate.

Are there any of these lagunas that could do 40LPM of air and not require a bubble plate in that large of a skimmer, or should I just stick with the 2 1260/2s?

Might be willing to try out one of these baddies.

i am not sure but i think the laguna 3000 can be near to this # but i am not sure some member ask here "quangtam7" about it because he test this pump hope he will answer like that we can know for sure. i also don't think that 2 eheim pump will pull 40LPM on that size of skimmer .