1g Desk Tank @ Work...Pics!

[bladze]

umm... what about you? why 6 line wrasse in 15 gal? isn't it supposed to have 30 gal or bigger? LOLz

Originally posted by Henry22
Your being a little ignorant about it, just because most clowns arent jumpers doesnt mean they cant and just because your clown lived for a year doesnt mean it was the right enviroment. If you want a clown, get a ten gallon.

[Slakker]

If you want to play by what Drs. Foster and Smith say a fish requires, then you'd need a 20 or larger for a clown, which just makes this whole thread even more ridiculous. Keeping a fish in 1/2 of its recommended space is a bit more reasonable than keeping it in 1/20th of it's recommended space.

[sentinel105]

Originally posted by Rosseau
It's a tough debate to get into. Rarely does anybody come out a winner. No matter how you slice it, our reef tanks can't even come close to the size of a natural reef in the ocean.

There are minimum sizes needed to sustain life. You could spend your entire life in a 3' x 3' cell and would be perfectly healthy, we all know that. But how do you measure your quality of life? Even harder, how do you measure the fish's quality of life?

Who knows. It's a tough one. Ultimately it's up to the individual to decide what they think is acceptable - if you feel good about it, then go ahead. (that wasn't directed at you Jadams)

I agree with this post. It is impossible to measure the quality of life of a fish based solely on the size of the tank it lives in. If the water quality is bad, that's one thing, however if its living conditions are optimal, and then only "concern" is the size of the tank, then it is impossible to judge short of asking the fish.

Technically, no fish should be kept in a tank. All fish should live in the ocean and have unlimited room to move about. Unfortunately this is not the case, and many people decide to put a minimum on tank size.

Some humans are locked up in prison and confined to a life of living in a 10' x 10' x 10' (1000 cubic ft.) cell, usually with another person as well. If we were to relate that idea to fishkeeping, taking into consideration that the average male is, let's say 5'10" tall, that's 11'8" of human per prison cell. That means that you need at least 84 cubic feet per 1 foot of human (aka 1" of fish per gallon). Does that make sense? Of course not. People live where they feel comfortable, and last I checked, prisoners don't die off left and right because they're cell is too small.

Further, contrary to the belief of some, fish are not as intelligent as humans. According to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" in which a baby human is chained at each arm inside a cave with no light, the baby would grow up and no nothing other than what he can see from where he is. He would not even be aware that his arms were chained. This, relating to fishkeeping, would purport that a fish being kept in a small tank and knowing nothing other than living in a small tank would not cause it stress due to wishing or desiring a larger tank.


Anyway, this was a long rant not meant to go on for so long. Do what you want and what you think is right. My neighbor keeps a 14" arrowana in a 20 gallon tank, and some of the local chinese food places also have 3 LARGE oscars in a 20 gallon as well. The fish have been living there for at least the last 5 years and they're fine.

[Slakker]

Like you said, it's impossible to tell...how do you know they're fine? Any of these fish could be experiencing stress because they don't have enough room to live comfortably, or as stated earlier, could be stunted. I certainly don't think it would be very comfy to have my internal organs growing while my surroundings limited the growth of my body.

As for the Allegory of the Cave, marine ornamentals are far more sensitive to changing or inadequate environmental factors than people are. That's kinda like saying that if you put a newly hatched clown in freshwater, it would never know the difference and be totally fine. This is obviously not the case.

[Rosseau]

Originally posted by Slakker
As for the Allegory of the Cave, marine ornamentals are far more sensitive to changing or inadequate environmental factors than people are. That's kinda like saying that if you put a newly hatched clown in freshwater, it would never know the difference and be totally fine. This is obviously not the case.

Though I agree that marine organisms are generally less tolerant of change (historically the ocean is much more stable than the land), I'm not so sure about your freshwater analogy.

In the cave there exists all that the human needs to survive. Arguably the same is true for a small marine tank and a clown fish.

The cave analogy says nothing of removing requirements for survival. Placing a clown in freshwater removes the necessary dissolved minerals with which it has adapted to. Your statement is assuming that the cave anecdote has altered a major requirement for human survival, yet I'm not so sure it has.

Anyways, do you think Jadams wants his thread back? Nah.. I'm sure he'll enjoy this when he's back from the ol' 9-5.

[Jadams]

Originally posted by Rosseau


Anyways, do you think Jadams wants his thread back? Nah.. I'm sure he'll enjoy this when he's back from the ol' 9-5.

This is what i do while bored and in the office on my 9-5, so im here still

Just following along on my thread which has recieved WAY more attention than needed. But it is a great debate. I love the internet!!! CHEERS!

[burton14e7]

I think you should turn it into an SPS tank.

[Slakker]

It's arguable whether the cave is removing something necessary for human survival or not, I guess. Personally I think that interaction and (relative) freedom is something that we as a species need to survive in any kind of stable or happy state of mind. I don't think any creature would thrive if literally chained down.

Though, my opinions on humanity are just as much speculation as Plato's were

[Henry22]

Originally posted by bladze
umm... what about you? why 6 line wrasse in 15 gal? isn't it supposed to have 30 gal or bigger? LOLz

I know people who had them in 20s with great success, and so I tried one. He was doing great as the only other fish was my goby who didnt bother him, but sadly he passed away while I was on spring break, it snowed here then and when I came back my tank was at 73 degrees. But a clown in a gallon tank?

[Rosseau]

Originally posted by Slakker
It's arguable whether the cave is removing something necessary for human survival or not, I guess. Personally I think that interaction and (relative) freedom is something that we as a species need to survive in any kind of stable or happy state of mind. I don't think any creature would thrive if literally chained down.

Though, my opinions on humanity are just as much speculation as Plato's were

Yes yes, well said. I agree.

[Jadams]

....I love threads/forums on the internet!!

I honestly...honestly....honestly do respect everyone's opinions on this subject, and do agree with everyone's views on here. But lets try to stray away from all the analogies about caves and being chained to them since birth...LOL

Lets just leave it at this...When I have some more pics in a few weeks, Ill post em. Until then, lets not make any more assumptions about each others knowledge of, and or knowledge lacking on minimum tank size (per liveaquaria) or the ammount of room actually needed for a fish to be happy & healthy.

My soon to be new desk mate will be happy in his new home. No predators, fresh scripts NSW everyother day (dixie cup water changes) and freshly prepared meals all the time.

Pics coming in a few weeks

[Batray_Girl]

i've got the purple version of that tank! my blue harlequin lives in it with some mushrooms, A zoo, and a derasa

[steelerguy]

I love how people on the freakin internet try to control your freakin life. I might agree that a clown in a 1 gallon is a bit much, but if it's happy and alive who cares? it's your tank, so do what you want. My only fear is that a co-worker looks at it and thinks they can do that same with no experience when infact I doubt they could.

I don't think anyone here is trying to control someones life. You post on a forum for all to comment you get comments.

As far as a clown in a one gallon (minus space the sand and live rock take up)...a human in a prison cell can be perfectly healthy also for much longer than a year and a half. It is a pretty crappy life though and you are not so happy. Good thing you guys can talk to your fish though so you know that they are happy!

[vsnsofadrgn]

i have the green version with a sexy shrimp.

[burton14e7]

Originally posted by Batray_Girl
i've got the purple version of that tank! my blue harlequin lives in it with some mushrooms, A zoo, and a derasa

It took me a minute to realize that was a harlequin shrimp and not a tusk!


Going on the whole philosophy tangents. Can you prove fish are capable of emotions like happiness? I think they're either physically healthy or not. Health is measurable in fish where as emotion is not. Following the idea that words do not exist and are just memory associations humans used to communicate there is no way to tell if a fish is actually what humans call happy or even capable of what humans call being happy. Though you can tell if a fish has a full stomach and is swimming around activley and if Jadams is able to produce those results in a 1g then I commend him. Otherwise most of the comments in this thread are moot.

[Batray_Girl]

Very true. I don't believe that happiness can be measured or even really exists pertaining to fish, but I do use the term very loosely to decribe a healthy, active fish in a suitable environment (which we all know is relative).

However, they do react to pain and can become stressed, sometimes bordering on what seems to be mental distress due to their physical condition.

We've all seen a goldfish in a typical, small petshop bowl and been witness to its pacing and ramming into the glass. Whether it's "happy" or not, it's behavior is indicating that something is wrong. In a case such as that I could understand why someone would say,"That's an unhappy fish."

[Jadams]

Originally posted by Batray_Girl
However, they do react to pain and can become stressed, sometimes bordering on what seems to be mental distress due to their physical condition.

This is very true...I definetly agree!

[burton14e7]

Agreed, thats where I was going with the being able to measure health but sometimes others can word things better than me

[Slakker]

I think that our fish have emotions because we give them the ability to have emotions. If I don't get home to feed my fish right on time, they'll be swimming around right where the food comes. In my mind, they know what's supposed to be happening, and that they are smart enough to wait in the same spot for it every time reinforces that. So, to me, if I don't feed my fish on time, they're either pretty mad, or just plain impatient.

I know, I'm getting back to the philosophy thing again, but if someone really believes their fish are unhappy, maybe they are. what seems silly to one person may be completely real to another, and who are we to really say which one is right?

Personally, I don't think that either of my particular clowns would enjoy life in a 1g tank. Maybe the lil scrapper you get will be cool with his little studio apartment, but mine like the ranch. (Anthropomorphism at its finest )

And even more ridiculously off topic...has anyone ever wondered what babies think before they know words? No one ever questions whether a baby has emotions, because we see behaviors in babies that mirror the emotions we have words for...but can a baby really be "sad" or "cranky" if it doesn't know the words for it?

[Doglover_50]

The health and happiness issue is moot, but from a different perspective. My white tiger I keep in a cage in my basement has never been sick and has excellent weight and mobility. So...he must be happy, right? ;-)

Unless we can be unanimous about what is a healthy fish, then it's purely subjective--and since we are human and through cognitive dissonance modify our beliefs rather than behaviors, our ability to be a neutral observer is far from a given--unless you are a marine biology "expert." If we put fish in small tanks, rather than find them new homes, we are likely to say, "Well, I used to think a tang needed at least 70 gallons, but this unicorn tang looks real happy in my 20 gallon tank."

However, how about taking this argument in a more productive direction: Folks, for us nano and pico reefers, who is pushing the envelope and bugging suppliers to find pico fish that CAN work in a 2.5 or 5 gallon tank? They must exist--so why aren't they on the market?

[Jadams]

Originally posted by Doglover_50
My white tiger I keep in a cage in my basement has never been sick and has excellent weight and mobility. So...he must be happy, right? ;-)

Thats about the DUMBEST thing ive ever heard Doglover_50. There have been some BAD analogies on this thread, but that by far is the most ignorant, and just plan stupid one thrown out there.

Way to go with your $0.02 buddy...LOL

[Jadams]

Ps..I hope that didnt come off as mean, but lets not go too far on this subject..we can talk for days and make stuff up about things that dont "fit" in there cages. This thread would NEVER end if that was the case...

[burton14e7]

^^^ hater

[Jadams]

LOL...I hate you Chris..HAHAHA

[Doglover_50]

No worries--it didn't come across as mean--I think the words of John Stewart may describe your post better--in that particular post you were a

"serious d*ck"

My saying that makes me a:
<------------------HATER

It really isn't quite the dumb idea you think, nor a stretch. Please, if you are going to razz anyone, how about the baby in the cave, or comparing your clown in the nano to a human on a life sentence in a cell? ;-)

In fact this issue was up about a month ago here, and the dog stuck in a small apartment and human in a prison cell came up there too. In fact, if you do some investigating in warm states like Arizona or Florida, this is a huge problem, people caging big cats or wild animals as pets who then outgrow their surroundings. How's that different than say, the thread I saw last week on RC in the large reef tank page of some dude with a 150 gallon tank and a nurse shark that was now 3 feet long?

This little thread is just a downward extension to a much smaller fish, but the issues of sticking an animal in an undersized cage are definitely the same.

That said, if it worked for you before, go for it. I'm only saying that you or I are hardly the most objective judge of whether a fish is healthy or happy in a __x___ gallon tank.