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#26
04/12/2007, 04:22 AM
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Cool... if I can end up making one cheap, the smallest RD NW pulls 1000lph, so mesh? 1200? That one only pulls 40watts though, so I and the next one up is 58 watts and does 2000lph about... I should be able to hit that. I should get at least that then. Thats pretty good considering I got those 5000/901/110 powerheads for $30 each (F&S has them for $50 each in case anyone else wants to jump in on the action).
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#27
04/12/2007, 08:12 AM
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Im def interested in seeing this progress. Unfortunately my skimmer cant handle the kind of air you guys are talking about (only 6" chamber on my 75g system). It is currently using a meshwheel modded Aquabee 2001 pulling ~20scfh.
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-Kurt |
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#28
04/12/2007, 08:19 AM
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does it need to be a laguna pump? couldnt one mod any mag driven pump, danner et al? is the idea to just increase the volute size on a low wattage pump?
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#29
04/12/2007, 01:27 PM
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You could use a Mag... I just dont know that its worth it. Mags are noisy, hot, and tend to consume alot of wattage... They do however have small volutes, cheap impellers, and the volutes are held on with screws, so a custom one may be possible.
I just think the best results are possible with the laguna/aquaclear 110, and they are pretty cheap to buy in the first place.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#30
04/12/2007, 01:46 PM
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so the idea is to increase the volute size on an inexpensive low wattage pump? thereby allowing an oversized mesh wheel?
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#31
04/12/2007, 01:46 PM
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What about the water being pushed into the back side of the impeller? Can we manage that?
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If you have a college degree, you can be sure of one thing. You have a college degree! Superman owns Chuck Norris Pajamas!! |
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#32
04/12/2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
I would imagine that this laguna/110 pump, only using 65 watts at most, would use something like 40-50 watts when modded. Stile2, are you talking about the anti-calcification loop?
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#33
04/12/2007, 02:28 PM
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Yup
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If you have a college degree, you can be sure of one thing. You have a college degree! Superman owns Chuck Norris Pajamas!! |
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#34
04/12/2007, 02:40 PM
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Well, the anti-calcification look seems to me like another solution that RE needs to overcome a problem that they created in the first place. When I start ripping apart the 110 this afternoon Ill show why in more detail, but the loop is really there to provide cooling around the magnet to prevent deposits. The reason for this 'forced loop' is because the custom impellers use a disk around the opening that blocks off a good deal of the flow that the stock laguna has going into this area. We do not have such a problem. Worst case, yeah, I can bore out a hole for 1/4" JG... shouldnt be too hard... done crazier modding before (like removing the front half of the magnet shroud on a MJ1200 to give it an open magnet chamber).
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#36
04/12/2007, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
 Multiply by 0.47195 |
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#38
04/12/2007, 03:36 PM
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I found it on the net. Alot simpler to think about it is 1 lpm is equal to 2.118scfh
I used this table http://www.memflow.com/conversion.html |
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#39
04/12/2007, 03:48 PM
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PLEASE make sure you guys are using the correct scale. We TYPICALLY do NOT talk about air flow in LPM (Liters Per Min). We talk about air flow in LPH( Liters Per Hour) and SCFH (Square Feet Per Hour). Most of our pumps dont pump many LPM. For example a 1000lph pump (very typical these days) is only 16.6 LPM. DO NOT CONFUSE THESE PLEASE
 I went out and bought the wrong size air flow meter because everyone on this one thread were using LPM and I didnt check to be sure, and its way too big LOL.
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-Kurt |
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#40
04/12/2007, 04:26 PM
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Lol... hey, there are eheims out there that are pullin in 16-18 lpm... but I agree, lph is the standard along with scfh. I use a fraction... 35scfh/1000lph. That way I can have a ratio that is easy to solve either way I want to convert. For instance, 18scfh>>> x1000 than divide by 35 = 514lph. Or, 800lph>> x35/1000 = 28scfh.
BubbleKings are rated in gph of air as well... this is confusing. Take the gph and multiply by 3.78 to get lph. A BK200 internal is rated at 264gph... so multiply by 3.78 = 997lph. Kinda low for the price, no? An eheim 1262 can burn that, and so can a ATI BM 200 with less wattage. But the BK300 internal... thats 528gph or 1996 lph of air! Thats a monster, but still, an ATI Bubblemaster 250 can get 1800 for less wattage and money.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#41
04/12/2007, 06:27 PM
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Okay, well, here are some pics of the 5000... the first gen of this pump (then 901, then 110). The internals on this one look different than last time I cracked one open... think that was a 901 though. Ill open up one of those later and double check.
Anyways...         
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#42
04/12/2007, 06:29 PM
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quangtam7 must have lucked out and got a larger impeller with a disk on the impeller...
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/ponds/Utility_Pump_Guide.pdf no matter... either one should be an easy conversion to a meshwheel. quangtam7, can you give us more pics/specs how you did yours?
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#43
04/12/2007, 07:04 PM
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This page provides a better look at the impellers... as they get bigger, the shaft doesnt need support at both ends, the disk around the impeller is used to hold the impeller in place...
http://www.azponds.com/submersible_p...una_pump_parts Gee... I wonder what other impellers have that disk thingy attached...   [img]
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#44
04/12/2007, 07:39 PM
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This is an awesome idea! If you remember way back when you were playing with the smaller aquaclears, I asked what you thought about this model! At the time you thought they were too inefficient. I am happy you decided to take a closer look! I am on board too!
Mike |
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#45
04/12/2007, 08:32 PM
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Hahnmeister,
Maybe the shroud ‘seal’ could be accomplished using a simple gasket instead of an O-ring groove. It looks like you would have a HUGE sealing surface. |
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#46
04/12/2007, 09:14 PM
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Thats kinda what I was thinking. Then make a 1/4"-3/8" plate with that gasket like Royal does. The complication comes in then when we put the screws on... Something tells me that RE must just glue this plate to the pump for the best seal, then the plate is threaded for the larger volute to attach to that. Im thinking though that maybe with the DIY though, the plate should be screw-on, and then the volute is a fixed, attached part... and then, the volute cover is the removable part. That way, the gasket would seal the screws and the volute all in one, and the volute wouldnt need a seal... it would be bonded.
How would I make the volute cover removable? Well, look at quangtam7's volute closely... at the bottom you will see a bar-code... that tells me that his volute is actually a PVC fitting... maybe 3", maybe 4". Then, all I would have to do is hack up a cleanout adapter, and the removable lid would actually be a threaded cap... at least at first. The other issue is startup direction and supporting the impeller. My version doesnt have that disk to hold the impeller in place like the larger ones... so Ill have to come up with some sort of shaft support... shouldnt be too hard. Then there is startup direction... normally these pumps might spin both ways... how does RE get away with the volute which isnt symetric then? From what I remember though, these pumps start in on direction 90% of the time though... and once its running... Heck, I could prolly chop up acrylic... I have cast 1/4" and 3/8", as well as 3" and 4" acrylic pipe, as well as acrylic pipe for the intake and outlets. That might be sick looking... a DIY Red Dragon with a Clear Volute. Actually... that might be pretty easy to do... Then I can see whats going on inside to optimize it further (take high-speed camera footage and look at the bubble behavior). Screw the removable volute idea...
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#48
04/13/2007, 12:12 AM
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what is the exact model of the pump you are using?? i see that on AZPonds they have the impellers with the disk on them....for th 5000, 7000, and 10000 pumps. should i buy the disked impeller seperate from the pump? or will a new pump come with the disk? i thought i saw a date of 7/98 on your pump hahn.
they also have the old version 5000 series pumps that shold have the disked impellers for 90 bucks http://www.azponds.com/subpumps.htm
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Jeff Last edited by JCTewks; 04/13/2007 at 01:03 AM. |
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#49
04/13/2007, 12:38 AM
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Something to consider: It takes almost zero effort for Askoll to wind a custom stator to meet Royal-Exclusive's peak torque, wattage, and rpm requirements. Since they sell a niche market pump and charge a premium, they can afford to produce smaller quantities of specialty pumps. On the other hand, the tooling for the injection molded pieces typically start at 50,000 and rapidly go up. So it makes less sense to have Askoll (or third party) manufacture a custom housing for such a small quantity of pumps.
Hagen is producing a broader range product which larger market penetration to justify and make profitable their investment. My point is simply: Just because they have the same manufacturer and have the same housing, in no way means they are the same pump. Best of luck though, I would like to see you guys succeed. Lets see those dynamometer tests. |
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#50
04/13/2007, 01:52 AM
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It looks like the 5000, 7000, and 10,000 are the ones on that site that have the disk holding the impeller in place. Of the 'Utility Pump' Line, the disked impellers are the 5, 7, and 10. Of the Water Garden or WG pumps, it looks like they are the 3000, 5000, and 7000.
Hagen has some of the most confusing naming uses... their 'current line', which is usually nothing more than most of the old models recycled with new numbers and a few new added in, is shown here... http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...N=62728+113361 As well as here... http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...N=62728+113361 go figure. It seems like as long as you get one that is rated at 100 watts or larger, you will get the disk impeller. The best thing to do is compare with the user manuals, as they show the imlpellers rather well, and we know that anything that is at least the Utility Pump 6 or larger in output will have the disk impeller holder (we can see the shaft for the Utility 5 still needs support at both ends). http://www.hagen.com/usa/ponds/manual.cfm I dont know... its not that big a deal though. I was thinking a simple cross-brace in the center of the volute wouldnt be that bad really. I could even contour the fins of the cross brace to help direct air+water better over the impeller... like propeller blades or in a swirling shape to help water move to the outside of the volute better. I mean, whats the big deal... I can put a 1.5" intake on the pump while Im at it if needed. The 6 is rated at 83 watts and about 1600gph though... thats a big pump. The good news is that that wattage should drop down to about 50-60 with modding... and this pump should get as high as 2000lph of air. Its a shame Hagen doesnt make these pumps with threaded fittings... they would make excellent pumps for this hobby as is. Of the years I have used them, they are just as, if not quieter, than the eheims. I know... thats a bold statement... but look at them... that nice ceramic shaft, ceramic ends/shaft holders on the ends even (spacers I suppose), ceramic on the impeller... these things were meant to last. Okay, so here's the comparison list... Laguna Utility 4 = Aquaclear 5000/901/110 = WG 2000 = new Powerjet 900 (az and foster&smith) = new Max Flo 900 All move about 900gph with 63-65 watts. Laguna Utility 5 = WG 3000 = Powerjet 3000 (az ponds) = new Powerjet 1300 = Powerjet 3000 72 watts and 1280gph ++++ from this point on up = disk supported impellers+++ Laguna Utility 6 = WG 5000 = Powerjet 5000 83watts, 1640gph new Powerjet 1500 = new Max Flo 1500 100watts, 1500gph new Powerjet 2000 = new Max Flo 2000 100watts, 2000gph Laguna Utility 7 = Laguna WG 7000 = Powerjet 7000 = Powerjet (Skimmer pump) 2150 129w, 2142gph new Powerjet 2400 = new Max Flo 2400 100watts, 2400gph new Powerjet 2900 = new Max Flo 2900 130watts, 2900gph.. might as well be the 2905 but just a little different... Powerjet (Skimmer pump) 2905 = Powerjet 10,000 137watts, 2905gph new Max-Flo 4200 160watts, 4200gph right up there with a Dart/Orca needlewheel wattage wise (or rather the 2905 is), but with a 4-5" diameter volute... based on the flow 'curve' of the other models, I bet this thing could do 4000+ lph of air if anyone is interested. So perhaps the best disk supported pump to go after would be the Laguna Utility 6 = WG 5000 = Powerjet 5000 series... prolly find a bunch on clearance... azponds.com has them on sale for $82 each. My guess is that the 901 series (65watts/900gph) should convert to this... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=655 Looks about right... 1000lph of air, 42watts as a needlewheel. Then the utility 5 goes into something like this... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=656 Utility 6... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=657 ...thats right, a modded Laguna 6 can make 2000lph of air on a needlewheel... imagine what it could do as a meshwheel!!! Utility 7... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=658 ...thats right, a modded Laguna 7 can make 2500lph of air on a needlewheel... imagine what it could do as a meshwheel!!! This would make sense since these pumps are about that old, and the newer pumps werent out then... so the RDs are most likely built around the utility pump 'era'. Look at the impeller on this Red Dragon... http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/cat...roducts_id=653  Looks alot like a Powerjet 7000 impeller... http://www.azponds.com/submersible_p...una_pump_parts Wow... so I can take a $90 pump, make a new volute from some acrylic, Delrin, or PVC, and charge $1020! Oh, that and swap out the shaft from the ceramic to a nice alloy one. Looks like I 'cracked the code' on that one. Well, I should have a 'clone' done some time this weekend out of acrylic... the shroud at least.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein Last edited by hahnmeister; 04/13/2007 at 02:49 AM. |
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