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#51
02/14/2007, 12:34 PM
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hmm.. how about this:
By category - ie. Coral Frags, Equipment, Macro's, Captive Breed, etc, etc. A monetary limit and/or a number of sales posts limit per month. So - A user can either make say one selling post offering X number of items per month or a maximum of X dollars per month. Whichever is greater. Under this rule, the guy selling a single type of rare frag would be able to make a single post per month offering X number of frags, price does not matter. (X being set at the time the rule is decided upon, and being set to a reasonable number for a hobbyist to reach, but not high enough that a commercial operations sees this as a good outlet for their wares.) or The other guy can make as many posts as he wants, but cannot be offering more than $250 worth of corals in total. in an equipment context: Mr Bubbleking can sell 1 skimmer per month for $500 or He can sell 3 DIY skimmers for $150 each in 3 seperate posts. The goal being to make set those limits so that it is not worth the time for the true commercial operation, but that it is still high enough that the hobbyist does have to many problems with hitting the limit. The fact is that there are people selling even now that probably fall under the current definition of commercial. There are also hobbyists being caught inadvertently by the same rule. What am I talking about makes it so that it really doesn't matter. If ORA wants to bother with making 3 posts a month to offer CB clownfish for a total of $300/mo, who cares. Because of the limit, they will not be competing heavily with the sponsors, or disrupting the hobbyist spirit of the site. Best of all, if a complaint comes in, a mod pulls up the guys posts for the last couple months, does a little math, and either bans the person or doesn't. **Edit ** It would then be a matter of the mods and community discussing where to make the limits. For the breeder section, suppose the rule read: You may make a single post per month, offering to sell up to 50 indidual fish of the same type or you can make up to 3 posts a month offering up to $250 worth of fish in total, whichever is greater. For the frag section: You may make a single post per month, offering up to 10 frags of the same type, or you can make up to 3 posts per month offering a total of $300 worth of frags. The numbers I'm using are just for example, I am not versed well enough in either of these categories to determine if those particular limits are accurate enough to accomplish the desired goal. Last edited by Cuervo; 02/14/2007 at 12:42 PM. |
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#52
02/14/2007, 12:44 PM
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Sorry.. I know it's bad form to double post..
But.. In addition, suppose that a hobbyist does get his commercial start using the selling portion of RC. I suggest that it won't be long before that person recognises the limit, remembers where he got his start, and applies to get his own banner at the top of the page! |
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#53
02/14/2007, 01:07 PM
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Cuervo, you neglected to mention that you own page 3.
Please do not attempt to sell it or I will have to ban you.
__________________
Always strive for the optimum environment, not the minimum environment. Some days you're the dog, other days you're the hydrant |
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#54
02/14/2007, 01:19 PM
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Cuervo,
Strangely enough, many of the things you have mentioned are things we have discussed, as well as various software programs that would allow us to monitor the various limits (we don't have that yet). As soon as we start talking about these things we get the "what about a person who is selling their entire set up - leaving the hobby" question. It's another exception. And it's the exceptions that make the selling and trading forums so difficult to moderate. We have an incredibly high volume of posts in those forums, and it's a nightmare to manually check each one. Your suggestions at least give us more grist for debate (I think we've mentioned that we don't make any decisions in a vacuum?  ).Kevin
__________________
NCAA Division 1 Championship Leaders: UCLA: 100 Stanford: 94 Southern California: 84 Oklahoma State: 48 Arkansas: 43 LSU: 40 Go PAC 10! |
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#55
02/14/2007, 01:26 PM
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I would like to add my thanks to Cuervo and others for offering their suggestions.
__________________
Always strive for the optimum environment, not the minimum environment. Some days you're the dog, other days you're the hydrant |
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#56
02/14/2007, 01:40 PM
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hehe an entire setup is one item - that guy gets 1 post for that month in the equipment section.
 Same as you wouldn't break a skimmer down into it's seperate pumps, etc. I can imagine that modding the selling sections is the biggest part of the job. It doesn't take any research to know if I make a bad post in this section. lol Who gets to mod the mod section, ooh I bet there's some toasty discussions in there. Brian - man.. good thing you don't ban for spelling errors.. I was just re-reading my last couple posts.. ughh.. maybe probation is in order. (double secret probation)
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#57
02/14/2007, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
As a long time mod on a large Canadian board, umpire in the summer, referee in the winter and commercial endeavour year round I'm glad and relieved that this has turned into a serious and thought provoking discussion.
__________________
Prisoner Number 642 On parol for reefkeeping Currently doing "time" in a medium security breeding facility for the terminally insane |
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#58
02/14/2007, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Always strive for the optimum environment, not the minimum environment. Some days you're the dog, other days you're the hydrant |
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#59
02/14/2007, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Prisoner Number 642 On parol for reefkeeping Currently doing "time" in a medium security breeding facility for the terminally insane |
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#60
02/14/2007, 06:36 PM
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"quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3rd, consider rule changes, the comparison of coral reproduction and fish reproduction is two opposite ends of the same breeding spectrum. with the exception of bangaii cardinals there is no fish you could realistically breed within a primary tank. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have tried to make it very clear on numerous posts that we are aware of these issues and will address them. I have also made it clear that some of the posts made on this issue have lessened my desire to do so. I haven't been given much evidence that anything we post will be met with anything but skepticism and scorn. " With all due respect, I see that you say that you are aware of the issues and will address them. I have been, I think, patiently waiting for this address. I still do not see how Matt could be called commercial. I still see posts every day selling multiple frag packs and stuff from their frag tanks that will be shipped to customers for hundreds of dollars. I have seen no explanation for why Matt is commercial and these sellers are not. I do not want to contribute to the number of posts that may lessen your desire to address this issue, but, kindly, when might we reasonably expect to see it addressed? How long must we wait? I understand how you feel. On my end, I don't have the feeling that my post will be met with anything but skepticism and scorn from the moderator staff. I suspect that Matt was suspended, not because he violated a rule, but because he fought hard to prove to you that he did not violate it. His offence was perhaps to challenge authority. I wait to hopefully find out that my suspicions are wrong. But now so much time has passed that I don't expect that my questions will ever be answered, however polite and respectful I am. None of this sits well with me. I am seriously considering taking a break from Reef Central, perhaps permanently. Respectfully, Kathy |
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#61
02/14/2007, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
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__________________
Always strive for the optimum environment, not the minimum environment. Some days you're the dog, other days you're the hydrant |
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#62
02/14/2007, 09:31 PM
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I see that my post has been met with “skepticism and scorn”.
 As I stated, I wait in hopes that my suspicions are wrong. This is not an indication that my mind is closed, but that it is waiting for information from you and the RC mods, in other words, open. However, your "little desire to convince me otherwise" makes me feel that there will be no informative response. Since you intend not to communicate, I have no information. It would have been helpful if the notion that there will be no answers had been expressed from the beginning, instead of making us wait in vain. I do hope you do not feel that I have been discourteous, as that is not my intention. I do not wish to sell fish here. I wish to see my friend reinstated. I wish to hear of a decision about how the rules will be expressed/enforced with some consistency. I wish to understand why he was taken off the forum when he is NOT commercial, and did not break a rule. I agree with you that it would be unreasonable to expect changes overnight nor do I need immediate answers. I do expect that after 3 weeks, we would have some information. Matt was suspended on January 25. It is now February 14. As a constructive idea, I would like to suggest that the rules about commercial posts be put aside. No sale of anything is unlike a commercial sale. In my opinion, the fish breeding folks who ARE commercial have no desire to post on the selling forum. I own and operate a fish breeding business, and I'm not even slightly tempted to post there. I could sell fish there for 3 times the price that I get now (if I would be allowed to do so), but I am interested in spending my time growing fish, not packing them in ones and twos, and entertaining numerous calls and emails about them. When you have 700+ fish to sell, you want to sell them 50 at a time! It is because I feel that all "selling" posts are commercial, that I have not reported the threads you would deem commercial by the rules set forth. It is neither my job, my duty, nor my inclination to police that forum. Also, it would be hard for anyone to miss the commercial frag posts there. Just look. I personally do not think the commercial rules are useful for the purpose they were intended. Just my opinion, as Matt would say, for what it's worth... Apparently, not much. I am done here. |
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#63
02/14/2007, 10:17 PM
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Kathy, I am at a loss. For the last 3 pages we have tried to summarize our position as much as possible. We have identified our concerns, and we have also acknowledged the need to address issues related to breeders. I don't know how much more information we can give.
__________________
Always strive for the optimum environment, not the minimum environment. Some days you're the dog, other days you're the hydrant |
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#64
02/14/2007, 10:34 PM
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Kathy55g
"Just my opinion, as Matt would say, for what it's worth... Apparently, not much. I am done here." There goes another one...These are frustrated people trying to save the community that they have brought together on your site. They are friends who obviously care about this group. BrianD wrote: "Since you have already decided in your mind that we are guilty of all your "suspicions", I have little desire to convince you otherwise. I trust others will have the courtesy to have a more open mind. In any event, whether you "take a break" from Reef Central is entirely up to you." These people are Really frustrated. Fanning the flames is the best way to settle a fire, don't you think? Seems that a simple gesture of changing a "moved on" back to active would help the situation. It would at least move the ball into someone elses court. Show that the management is generous, gracious and giving..... I was planning on participating in this group actively once I got a better feel for the fish husbandry. I would like to see this group of dedicated aquarists still together at that time. I value their intelligent dialogue (emphasis on intelligent). Someone should recognize that as a valuable asset. Just sticking my neck out a bit before intended. John |
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#66
02/14/2007, 11:07 PM
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Folks, we've explained the way the rules are interpreted and enforced. And they are enforced equally toward both breeders and fraggers (and modders and builders, for that matter).
We have put the information you have asked for in front of you, but you refuse to see it, or perhaps, acknowledge it. I understand, YOU do not believe the member in question was or is commercial. However, it's not your decision to make. Taking everything into account, including past practice, a decision was made. We WON'T further discuss another member's account status here. We will not reinstate an account because you demand it. That is something to be decided between RC and that member, not you, and not here. Sorry for being blunt. But the explanation of our policy is there. It is the policy we have been enforcing for several years. Most people understand it very well. For those who don't, we apologize. But beyond the policy that several people here have issues with, that wasn't the reason for the loss of posting privileges, plain and simple. There are other issues that need to be resolved with the member in question. And nothing said here will help or change that. Kevin
__________________
NCAA Division 1 Championship Leaders: UCLA: 100 Stanford: 94 Southern California: 84 Oklahoma State: 48 Arkansas: 43 LSU: 40 Go PAC 10! |
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