Where's Matt been lately?

[danfrith]

Haven't seen him post for atleast a couple weeks. Kinda hard not to notice he's gone when he makes up for about half the post in this forum.

[Dman]

Alas, Matt got the smackdown for messin with Mods.

[David M]

Hve you been vacationing on a deserted island?? There was a controversy and Matt got banned from RC. It's sad, a rediculous misunderstanding IMO.

[aomont]

We´re still waiting to see an oficial comment from the mods or the actual rules that run these forums...
Will that be long(er) ?

Anderson.

[Dman]

Originally posted by aomont
We´re still waiting to see an oficial comment from the mods or the actual rules that run these forums...
Will that be long(er) ?

Anderson.

I wouldn't hold yer breath

[tanglovers]

Yeah it is a shame, he was a very valuable asset here. Has he officially moved to another forum? I know he posts occasionally out on RCF but have not seen alot out there. I guess he was too commercial to advertise on the selling forums here....you know I guess the 3-4 nanos he used.....

[Noof]

Is there a short version of what he did/said?
I agree a valuable asset lost
Nathan

[Kathy55g]

3 nanos

[Kmiec123]

Not sure if there's a short version...He is missed for his wonderful input to this forum. Interesting too because he's a great guy and I always thought you really had to work on getting kick out hear...I know that wasn't the case so not sure what's going on and why it's taking so long for a decision. Or has the decision been made??

[Cuervo]

If anyone has a link to the forum Matt is now using to post, please pm it to me.

I respect that RC needs ot have established rules in order to maintain the vision of the site, and I also respect that there is a fine line between commercial and hobbyist.

Having browsed these forums for quite some time, I have to say that RC really needs to establish some type of review process that takes place when members are banned. In addition to that, it seems that in many cases the line between commercial and hobbyist needs to be more clearly established.

[David M]

it seems that in many cases the line between commercial and hobbyist needs to be more clearly established.

This seems to be as "clear" as we are going to get:

If you have fish that spawn in your personal tank and you wish to sell the offspring, that is perfectly acceptable. However, if you maintain tanks for the sole purpose of breeding fish, you will be viewed in the same manner as someone who maintains fragging tanks for corals.

What that "view" is is not made clear, but taken in context it seems to mean that RC's position is that it is not possible to breed marine ornamental fish as a hobby, one who does so is automatically assumed to be a commercial enterprise. I suppose there is some justification for this because IF you are successful you will have too many fish to keep as pets and are unlikely to just give them away, so it follows you will probably sell them. Now in the case of a person who simply trades them to thier lfs for supplies I should think that would make for an exception, but the logistics of studying every breeder case by case makes it irrelevant.

The only thing I really don't like about the statement above is it's really apples and oranges, you can frag corals in your main display tank and sell them but you cannot raise fish larvae without maintaining a tank for "the sole purpose of breeding".

I don't think there is anyone here or anywhere else that does not recognize that aquaculture is the only hope for a continued hobby, ( hence the need for sites like RC), you'd think breeders would get just a little slack

Matt crossed an invisable line and paid the price, like I said above it's real shame.

[Kmiec123]

Unfortunately, The IRS tells me its a hobby unless I can generate $5000.00 per year of income. I've only been playing with the notion of breeding over the last 10 months because when my pair started spawning, my fiance said "we can't just let them Die!" Several thousand hours of research and reading later...out of 10 batches I have about 40 fish.....Commercial....I can't say, but at this rate $5k per year is looking kind of tuff to make.

I guess the main issue with me is the only reason Matt sold those fry was so they didn't die, with disease issues at his house and no tanks space. Just some thoughts

[aomont]

If you have fish that spawn in your personal tank and you wish to sell the offspring, that is perfectly acceptable. However, if you maintain tanks for the sole purpose of breeding fish, you will be viewed in the same manner as someone who maintains fragging tanks for corals.

This way only frags and banggais could be sold... Although I´ve seen guys with tanks dedicated to fragging/keeping frags in these forums selling as non-commercial and others (Matt) keeping baby clowns on breeders net inside the main tank and being labled was a commercial enterprise.

I don´t think a decision has been made as its quite complex to get an aggreement and as members should know what the decision was. In forums where mods count for less than 10% of the posts, members should be informed of the decisions for sure.

Anderson.

["Umm, fish?"]

The IRS also tells me that whatever I'm doing is a hobby unless I turn a profit 3 years out of 5....

But, unfortunately the real difference between a hobby and a commercial venture is the intent of the person who is doing the venture. The problem is that there's no way for RC to know or monitor what someone's intentions are. I see the problem from RC's perspective. But it sure does seem like they're sometimes a bit too quick on the "ban" trigger. And it seems to me as if there's a bit of a bias against fish/invert breeders vs. coral fraggers. Especially when the rule, as stated in Matt's thread, is certainly not being enforced. Plenty of people have frag tanks and sell frags on these boards.

[David M]

Carl, you need a better accountant I believe that is hogwash As I understand it you must show a profit in at least one of the first three years of business. I have no idea where the $5000 comes in. I'll know more soon as I am working on my books right now and meeting with the accountant soon.

Hey if just trade my fish am I commercial? ( Oh, right, I trade them for money )

[Cuervo]

Therin lies the problem as I see it. How do you draw the line between hobby and commercial. Profitability? Number of Tanks?

If the vision for the site is to maintain a place for people to exchange information regardless of their experience level, then why have a place for selling anything at all?

It sounds extreme, but it seems to me they should just remove all fo the trade and sell forums all together. I mean it could be argued that selling anything turns your hobby into a commercial endeavor.

There are plenty of other sites out there for buying and selling things, why use RC for it, if this is meant to be a place to exchange ideas?

[BrianD]

First, as a CPA let me just say that the IRS doesn't decide what is a hobby and what isn't based on profitability. If that was the case, Ford Motor Company would be a hobby. The 3/5 rule simply shifts the burden to the taxpayer to prove/demonstrate that they have the means/ability/intent to make a profit.

For the matter at hand: No one was removed from the community for posting a "for sale" thread. The resulting communications after the thread was removed were the cause for the suspension of priviliges. Note that I said "suspension". We have made it clear that it doesn't have to be permanent. With that being said, RC has a long policy of not discussing members who are suspended. As such, I ask that those discussions stop.

As for the clarification of the rules, I pretty much decided it was pointless since every time I asked for some time to respond, 20 people would comment on their interpretation of the rules. Frankly, the conspiracy theories and baseless accusations made me less excited about starting another battle.

[Cuervo]

Brian, I'm with you 100% - the rules are the rules, and one of them is not to hassle the mods. I suppose this post actually belongs in the feedback section. If that's where you would prefer it, pm me, lock the thread, and I will copy and paste this there. I am really intending to discuss this in general, not with regards to any specific person.

I really feel strongly that this is something I have seen happen many times on RC - a person breaks the rules, they then receive a warning. The person doesn't feel like they broke the rules, or did not intend to do so, and they are angry because they are a contributor to the community. The whole thing just goes way downhill from there, with the end result often being a person who no longer wishes to contribute to the community, or is no longer allowed to contribute.

In almost every case - the rule in question has to do with that commercial selling thing.

I have two suggestions with regards to this, both are intended to reduce the number of people who did not intend to break the rules. (screw the people who do it on purpose.. hehe)

- First - Clarify the rules with regard to what is "hobby" and what is "commercial"

-Second - A better way to handle these cases so that the offender does not end up so angry over the situation. Some type of appeal method, warning system, or something of that nature.

I mention that second one because I really get the feeling that what often happens is a simple misunderstanding gets blown out of proportion and it ends up costing the community a member, and sometimes more than one.

** People get angry because they care, the more they care, the angrier they get. Taking a mod who cares deeply, and a member who cares equally deeply and having them disagree is going to lead to fireworks.

[BrianD]

When someone is contacted for violation of the commercial posting policy, the moderator will always cite the User Agreement paragraph on commercial posts, but will also make clear that it is impossible to address every possible commercial circumstance. The moderator will also make clear that we don't follow the Webster definition (or IRS definition, etc) of "commercial". The basic premise is that if you buy or raise something with the intent to resell it, you may be viewed as commercial. With regard to fish breeders, the difficulty is in determining whether someone who breeds fish for a "hobby" should be allowed to sell the offspring, while at the same time denying companies like ORA from doing the same. If we make exceptions for the size of the operation, how does one set the limit? Is it one tank? Three? Five? Once you open the door, it is tough to close. Those were the issues we wanted to attempt to clarify. Regrettably, we were not given the opportunity to do so. In our desire to take our time and form a fair decision, we subjected the board to all manner of claims of bias, unfair treatment, and favoritism.

As for your second point, no decision we make is carved in stone. Although the initial contact may not seem to leave any room for debate, we always listen to the member and consider their arguments. Please understand that those members who argue the loudest about being put on "probation" are those with the most to lose from being unable to sell. We are not ebay, and the ability to sell merchandise here is provided as a service to our members. It is not a "right".

[FishGuttz]

Huh? This is absolutely absurd. Matt has successfully raised very few fish. (besides cichlids)
Martin Moe, Frank Marini, and everyone else on this Breeding Forum talk about huge numbers of breeding attempts and successes. Even breeding setups are compared. This couldn't be the reason!

Maybe it was all the talk about starting a site for small breeders to sell fish? Is that possible.
I think maybe banning him is a little strong. How about a short suspension! The point of this site is to teach others about Marine husbandry. Matt has literally written books of information on this site to help us all. Shame on whoever banned him!!!!!

[BrianD]

Since you know none of the facts involved, how is it that you judge it is "absurd"?

As for you "suggestion" about a suspension, that is all any ban is. You have to work hard for a permanent ban.

Your post is a classic example of why it is fruitless to discucss issues with some people. Regardless of lack of knowledge of facts and circumstances, you are quite comfortable with sitting in judgment.

[GreshamH]

Regardless of all the above...

Matt was a very valuable member to this forum and I miss reading his many daily posts

[clownfish75]

Hi Brian

I understand that moderating a site is a huge drain on ones time and effort, and is very frustrating, i just moderated the local forum because osmoene wanted to swear and bea tthe sensorship devices, it is a thankless task.

I would like to have a decent discussion about such events here and would like to make some point perhaps you could take back to those in the positions of power around here.

1st, how long is matts suspension for?

2nd, might i surgest that you have suspended someone who was the most prolific poster in this breeding forum.

3rd, consider rule changes, the comparison of coral reproduction and fish reproduction is two opposite ends of the same breeding spectrum. with the exception of bangaii cardinals there is no fish you could realistically breed within a primary tank.

Breeding fish is a difficult and time consuming task, to have a larval tank and a grow out tank is not unrealistic to be part of a hobbiest setup not a commercial venture. As it really cant be done any other way.

Breeding corals is all fine and dandy, but comparatively easy, one could argue that point, but i dont see how the 2 compare well.

Is therew any chance that the rules can be modified to be more ammicable to all, or is there any way of a case by case basis, not like many fish breeders are on here.

Christian

[BrianD]

Originally posted by GreshamH
Regardless of all the above...

Matt was a very valuable member to this forum and I miss reading his many daily posts

That was never (and is not) in dispute.

[aomont]

Hi Brain thak you for coming and discuss even when you think it may not be worth it !

I know defining "commercial breeding" and "intent to make profit" is not easy to do. I also read you asking for some time for RC to discuss the subject and I haven´t posted anything on the subject since then.

I´ll not insist in discussing about Matt having left the forum after his thread was removed. But was the thread removed because it was interpreted as commercial ? I aggree at some extent when you say its difficult to separate hobbyists who breed fishes from commercial operations like ORA or any other. It´s not easy to me either to differentiate home coral propagation from commercial coral farms. If you have any easy effective way on the frags just tell me because it is the point of many here.

Why a thread that sells and ships frags to other states is not removed while Matt´s were ? That´s the only question in my mind for the moment... I´m not trying to change the rules, I´m not trying to bring people in to this discussion, I´m just trying to understand it. If you have an explanation please put it here and work inside RC to have it stick somewhere we can find.

Anyway, I may never sell fish or inverts here, too expensive to ship the US from where I am.

Anderson.