Zeovit SPS reefs

[TryTheChi]

Originally posted by RichConley



I think the main thing people need to take here is that each alternative method that works, there is something to be learned. I run a DSB, but bomber and the BB people taught me a bit. I run high flow (150x turnover) and a huge skimmer. The zeovit people taught me about the Reinhold ratio and carbon limitation, and I've now dealt with that. People need to stop thinking about this as a war, and looking at the bigger picture.

Amen to that

[Creetin]

Originally posted by prodman
This is not directed at you creetin but I have had more rtn/stn from my CA reactor and temp spikes than from zeo. I think its easy to balme zeo when problems happen when other things can be to blame.

I know it was the zeo. As soon as i stopped the sps stopped rtn'ing.
I was dosing too much start, It was assumed since my tank was not zeo it was filthy. I just needed to get over a hump that kept me just over the lines. The zeo reactor gained gph on me for some reason i dont know of as well.
Well dosing 2 ML of start when you only needed 2-4 drop a day is the reason i lost what i did. Plus all the bak and food that was overdosed. It filled my rocks with turft algea, My sps rtned away. Its a gamble, I for one would never use it again.
You may have better results, But it was a fact i was told to add way too much. Ask GQ

[Creetin]

I consider jeff a good friend, I dont have anything anainst zeo user's. I just see it being made out to be a god sent, when it has its downsides. Not little down sides, Big ones if you screw up.
The reason i overdosed so long is that i had blind faith. Not knowing what results to look for, and all the times i asked what this stuff ment i was told its the old nutrients leaching out of the rocks ect ect ect.
Not till i had mass stn/rtn was it looked into further.
The system is not perfect, Their should be a more comprehensive system to look for problems that could have saved me and people like me are exp with the product.

[TryTheChi]

Originally posted by Creetin
I know it was the zeo. As soon as i stopped the sps stopped rtn'ing.
I was dosing too much start, It was assumed since my tank was not zeo it was filthy. I just needed to get over a hump that kept me just over the lines. The zeo reactor gained gph on me for some reason i dont know of as well.
Well dosing 2 ML of start when you only needed 2-4 drop a day is the reason i lost what i did. Plus all the bak and food that was overdosed. It filled my rocks with turft algea, My sps rtned away. Its a gamble, I for one would never use it again.
You may have better results, But it was a fact i was told to add way too much. Ask GQ

Thats a real shame - the opposite should have happened. Did you get any advice on dosage levels?

[Creetin]

Yes bob gave it to me, Later jeff figured out that i was grossly overdosing start2 ,bak and food. And along with the reactor gaining 100gph from when i first set it up. The reactor is my bad.

[TryTheChi]

Originally posted by Creetin
Yes bob gave it to me, Later jeff figured out that i was grossly overdosing start2 ,bak and food. And along with the reactor gaining 100gph from when i first set it up.

Ahhh - I see - B! I think your right about potential big downsides - and flying blind when one first starts out with the system. On the otherhand - if taken cautiously etc etc it can turn out right - at least it has for me. I took copious notes of what people like Jeff, Alexanader and Meso reported, just to give me some idea of what to expect and look out for. Personally I never take advice from someone whose tank I'v never seen - it could be a real dogs dinner Still waiting to see the dude's pride and joy.....

Anyways I'm very sorry you had a bad experience - disheartening and costly!


Cheers

Simon

[ejocam]

by TryTheChi
Personally I never take advice from someone whose tank I'v never seen - it could be a real dogs dinner Still waiting to see the dude's pride and joy.....Simon

I couldn't agree with you more. On a side note, The stuff worked for me too.

[slojmn]

Originally posted by ejocam
I couldn't agree with you more. On a side note, The stuff worked for me too.

We've all seen your tanks

[TryTheChi]

Originally posted by fishfanatic06
I am probably going to start running the zeovit system on my tank and I was wondering what your experiences are with the zeosystem. Is there any huge downside to running this stuff? How has the growth and color of your sps improved from running it?
Thank you
for your replies!

I dont know if this is helpful - but here's my take on zeovit in a little more detail. Hopefully other zeousers can add to it:

You can observe the effects - but the whole product range is quite complex, so the key is understanding the system and observing cause and effect, and know what remedial actions to take which requires a substantial discipline to dose one element at a time and in moderate amounts as per the guide or less if the reef is not heavily stocked.

Zeoheads recommend high and exacting levels of SPS husbandary. This should be enough to get the best out of SPS right? Zeo has to prove itself over and above these standards as the acid test of its worth. If one is the type that spends a shed load of money and sees good results in even the feintest glimmer of a change, you are going to be happy. I'm the type that spends shed loads of cash, and goes hyper critical

Here is how the system breaks down:

Nutrient reduction:

All the usual husbandary ie intensive skimming, water change with RO/RI moderate feeding.

The zeo element is to also provide a biological/chemical filter in the zeo-reactor which both reduces nutrients and provides bacteriaplancton. The use of zeolites for this has caused some controversy and the flow rate through the reactor appears critical, as too high a rate is said to cause TN by stripping out nutrients too quickly.

The other feature of the 'basic 4' is the use of regular ballanced bacteria innoculations, bacteria food, and a carbon source. The theory is that in a closed system the bacterial guild become unballanced over time with some bacs becoming dominant and some dying out. You could argue that the bacs that die out do so for a reason, as they dont have the conditions to thrive, however what isnt clear is the role of these weaker bacs as a plancton food source for other inhabitants.

I remain unsure of the value of the zeolites. Its unclear to me what the advantage is of these compared to letting the bacs /skimmer to all the work innutrient reduction. I wonder if its would be as effective to use similar sizes of LR in a zeo reactor to host the bacs.

Regarding the bacs - I have used both Prodibio and zeo bacs, and both have resulted in measurable reductions in NO3 and PO4.

The end result of the use of zeobasic 4 (zb4) is a nutrient limited enviroment, resulting in alage die back including the symbiotic zoos in sps. I can vouch for this IME. The result of symbiotic die back is that underlying color can be seen. However, left at that there is a risk that sps become so nnutrient deprived that they start to bleach - hense the importance of alternative feeding:

Alternative feeding:

Mulm :Shaking the zeolite daily (or LR pieces I would guess) produces bactoplancton. The water goes cloudy and Polip extention extends in response. This is critical to the sytem working. The resulting 'mulm' reflects the make up of the bac strains, bac food and carbon source, and so its nutritional value will reflect that. How one tests, other than through anecdotal experience - I have no idea

However both PE of sps and growth other filter feeders is a sight to behold. The zooplanction in my refugium have multiplied extensively, and the sponges have grown considerably too.

Amino Acids: Fed after lights out, these are important to prevent bleaching. It takes a while to get the dose right to prevent bleaching or excessive darkening - but it does work.

Phols CV: Another food source - contents unknown. I stopped using this a couple of weeks ago just to see if it make a difference and the colors became less vibrant - still the same colors but more matt/dull.

Element management/additions:

Major elements are kept within the usual params for sps tanks, with two significant exceptions:

DKH is recomended within 6-8 with users claiming higher can cause STN in this method. Obviously there are great tank with higher dkh, but that is the zeo recomendation for thier system.

A focus on Potassium has been a major recent development with the advent of a suplement and test kit. Most mainstream salts, with the exception of Seachem Reef are below NSW levels, and I have notice real gains in growth and vibrancy since paying attention to it. An interesting Q here is why do some tanks look superb without supplementing for K? I dont know - maybe something to do with the zeolites, or the enhanced growth rates that can be achieved with this method? I remain impressed in my reef though.

Minor element additions:

ZeoSpur 2 and B Ballance: Real stars in the range - these expell zoos from sps revealing underlying color. So powerful, that you need to have mastered the above before even experimenting with caution. You dont need to develope sutble powers of observation with these, but disciplin is critical.

Macro elements: Replenishes elements and effects growth rates. Easily checked by with holding doses - the reef slows down.

Iron, Potassium Idodine, Floride, Iodine: Used to tweak colors. Again easily checked by adding or with drawing doses.

All this takes time money and energy to implement, and is not for those who want quick fixes, because:

1) OD on these can cause more problems than they solve so feeling onces way cautiously is needed;
2) SPS respond to slow steady shifts in environmental conditions - that is thier nature.

I'v come off the fense to being quite impressed with the system after 4 months, and happy for any experienced sps keeper with good color already who are interested in the method to come an visit to assess for themselves.

It wont turn genetically brown sps into oregan torts, and some specimones when introduced go down hill then re-emerge looking different but attractive, and its a joy to watch something with a hint of clor turn in a LFS trun out to be something quite special after a while.

[kkris]

Thanks Simon.
Best explanation of the system to date!
Please keep us informed of the results if you replace the zeolites with live rock. I have been thinking about doing the same.

[solbby]

I am performing a large bacterial study of stable aquariums, with the idea of understanding the amounts/types/ and effects bacteria have on reef tanks in general. I have recruited some of the nicest reefs out there and would like to include a zeovit run system in the mix (more than one would be best for reproducibility sakes).

The reef tank(s) in question would have to have a few criteria met.
1. More than one year old, preferably 3-4 years old.
2. Unchanged over time, except for growth.
3. Growing and healthy, no large corals deaths in the last 9 months.
4. NO PESTS or treatment for Pests within a 9 month period.

I would provide all the tubes to collect samples. PM me if interested.

BTW this study is going to be controversial , so if you can't handle the results and have preset notions, I would prefer to not include your reef. I give this warning with good intentions, since I am only going to deal with FACTS not dogma or theories.

[TryTheChi]

I'd love to contibute - but is the UK too far?

How do you know its going to be controvercial?

[solbby]

The UK is probably too far, since I would need samples sent to me on a regular basis, but if I get no "bites", then beggars can't be choosers, .

It is going to be controversial because my preliminary results are such (please don't ask me about them, since preliminary results = not ready for wide release).

[TRyanJD]

My LFS describes the ZEO method as starving the tissue to brightness... and further states that while the colors are bright the growth rate is not so great. Lol, and the prices are ridiculous.

[TryTheChi]

Originally posted by TRyanJD
My LFS describes the ZEO method as starving the tissue to brightness... and further states that while the colors are bright the growth rate is not so great. Lol, and the prices are ridiculous.

Do they/have they used the system? How would you rate thier general competancy as an SPS LFS?

[TRyanJD]

Originally posted by TryTheChi
Do they/have they used the system? How would you rate thier general competancy as an SPS LFS?

They carry the line and use it in their front display tank. They've said it looks better, then worse, then better... that the balance of using the products is tough. I guess the bottom line is that there are 30 ways to make an SPS tank look great. Look at Tyree, no skimmer just cryptic filtration and certainly no ZEO products. OTOH, I've seen some awesome ZEO reefs too. Honestly I think that if you put THAT MUCH time and effort into the aquarium regardless of the method it'll be successful.

So basically they stock it for the few local guys who use it, but won't sell it to 99% of their customers who use modified Berlin system with big skimmers, big circulation, 2-Part or Ca Reactors and big lighting.

[ejocam]

Originally posted by TRyanJD
They carry the line and use it in their front display tank. They've said it looks better, then worse, then better... that the balance of using the products is tough. I guess the bottom line is that there are 30 ways to make an SPS tank look great. Look at Tyree, no skimmer just cryptic filtration and certainly no ZEO products. OTOH, I've seen some awesome ZEO reefs too. Honestly I think that if you put THAT MUCH time and effort into the aquarium regardless of the method it'll be successful.

So basically they stock it for the few local guys who use it, but won't sell it to 99% of their customers who use modified Berlin system with big skimmers, big circulation, 2-Part or Ca Reactors and big lighting.

Can you tell me what store it is? I would like to check out the system. Thanks

[Horace]

Originally posted by TRyanJD
My LFS describes the ZEO method as starving the tissue to brightness... and further states that while the colors are bright the growth rate is not so great. Lol, and the prices are ridiculous.

If by starving the tissue they mean reducing the P04 and NO3 levels to near natural salt water levels, then I would agree. Other than that, I think thier statement is quite misleading. I would not say the coral is starving just because the water lacks nutrients. I also do not agree with the growth statement either. I have seen phenominal growth on corals in Zeo tanks. The whole key is to not reduce the nutrients to SUPER low and then not feed your corals enough. You have to keep enough food available, while keeping the P04/N03 low. If you dont feed and your nutrients are also low, YES you will starve your corals and likely see super light coloration. But Zeo is not based on starving your corals and that is certainly NOT the goal.