DSB Question

Dux Hunt · #1 01/14/2007, 12:20 AM

Are sand sifting goby's good or bad for a DSB?

jski711 · #2 01/14/2007, 01:05 AM

imo i think they are good. im pretty sure it is good to keep the top layer of the sand stirred up. just my opinion.

john eichwedel · #3 01/14/2007, 07:50 AM

Love 'em,hate 'em.When he,s doing a nice light cleaning,it's great.When he's going to Cleveland via the bottom of my DSB,the rockwork settles.John

Rod Buehler · #4 01/14/2007, 09:08 AM

They are sifting the sand for food. Their food is the critters that keep a DSB functioning properly. Without those micro critters your sand bed will become a time bomb. A few years from now youll be posting that sand beds are bad and everyone needs to go bare bottom. IMO a DSB is one of the best things for a reef tank, but they need to be set up properly and maintained properly.

The following is a list of things that IMO might cause your sand bed to go bad. I am not saying that anything on this list will cause your bed to crash, but IMO will decrease your chance of success with a Dsb. If you want to use/add any of the following, by all means do so, but be prepared to deal with any consequences. (IE: if you want a large grain size with no critters, you may have to siphon your sand, which will kill the anaerobic bacteria that denitrifies. It can work just like any other system.. Just a little common sense is needed)

Critters are the most important aspect of a DSB, and not just the gramara shrimp (amphipods) and mysids that are easily seen swarming. There is much more fauna than the eye can easily see. anything that sifts for critters are VERY detrimental Sand sifting stars or sand sifting gobies are sifting for the microcritters as their food source. The microcritters process the waste by consuming some of it and turning their rears up into the water column and releasing it again so the flow can carry it away into a good skimmer and to other filter feeders and corals.

Grain size is very important and very much of what I see is too large in size for a DSB IMO. Many people read that they need live sand (meant critters) and when they see bagged live sand (worthless POS) at the store they think "Hey I need live sand" and the store owner agrees

. The hobbyist never gives a second thought about real live sand (read critters/microfauna). Most of the bagged live sand has a grain size that is too large IMO and will allow the detritus to settle between the grains (timebomb). If you want to use a larger size, you can, and they will work, but you may need to replace the bed in 2-3 years)

Water flow. You still need a lot of water flow to keep the detritus suspended in the water column until its carried away to the filter feeders and to a good skimmer.

Skimmers. Dont skimp!!!

Filter socks. IMO they are bad. If you want to clean them every 3-4 days, there arent AS bad, but I simply dont see the point. Trapping detritus in a bag where water is consistently passing over and DISOLVING the detritus into dissolved organics doesnt make sense to me. Dissolved organics is very difficult to remove, whereas if you dont use a bag, the detritus can easily be removed by the skimmer and by the filter feeders. Trapping/dissolving the detritus is robbing your filter feeders (and skimmers) of their food. If you let them have their food, they will populate until an equal balance is reached. (Who wants to clean filter socks anyway?)

UV sterilizers. No they wont kill _all_ of the micro critters, but they definitely kill some. Many use UV with success, but would their beds be better without UV? IMO, yes, they would be. If I am trying to create a natural system, I dont want to be killing off any of the natural spawns that these microcritters produce. Not only will the critters make the sand bed more healthy, but they will also feed the corals when they spawn.

Not seeding: Many folks never seed their sand beds with actual live sand with critters that actually inhabit the sand beds. They were told that the live rock will seed the sand. To some extent, it will, but there are many critters that inhabit the sand that are rarely found on live rock.

There are probably other things that I am not thinking of at the moment.

This is not intended as a start to a debate on BB/DSB nor is it meant to debate any of what I just listed. They are just my opinions (/experience). Yes, systems can work very will with/without what I listed here and if you want to chime in with your views/experience, please do so, but lets not have the old debates that turned RC into flame wars for awhile.

Again, you can succeed with many different types of set ups, but a little common sense is needed. If your short on common sense, Its a good idea to pick a mentor and stick with their thoughts, because mixing methods can sometimes wreak havoc. (example: I love my DSB, but they take time and might look a little bad for a short period... You may go into a store and mention that your bed looks a little bad, and that store may recommend a SS goby. That sand sifter may be fine for that stores shallow sand bed, but will cause detrimental damage to a DSB).

Good luck!

Dux Hunt · #5 01/14/2007, 11:25 AM

As always- Thanks for the input Rod!

I kind of thought that that would be the case with sand sifters, especially in a confined system. They would make short work of the good stuff. Just like a forest with an over population of deer, the system is destroyed.

One question- you mentioned in the last paragraph that the bed may look bad for a short time. What do you mean, may look bad?

Thanks again.

Rod Buehler · #6 01/14/2007, 12:06 PM

When setting up a natural system/DSB, they take a little longer to "break in" and more paitience is required you will go through cycles of the sand bed looking nasty with diatoms, cyanobacteria, etc. The trick is to not sweat the small stuff. If you see a small patch of cyano, siphon it out if you want, but dont be overly concerned unless the cyano is starting to smother everything.Eventually the system will stabalize/mature into a tank that, IMO/IME requires much less maintenance. I am getting close to a DSB/BB debate which I dont want to do, because they can both work. Keep in mind that I am just pointing out some things on DSBs

Fuppets · #7 01/14/2007, 12:20 PM

Rod - Thanks for the post. What size sand do you recomend for a DSB? I am planning to set up a fuge in a week or two and wanted a DSB in there. Also what depths make a sand best shallow or deep? thanks.

tiny tentacle · #8 01/14/2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dux Hunt
Are sand sifting goby's good or bad for a DSB?

Get goby's if you think they are cute , I think they make no difference.
Yesterday removed all of my sand from my reef tank to be washed and sterilized.
It was a ton of work and I siphoned out the sand , the water was filthy Then I ran out of RO water so I had to use some tap water...etc . My SPS did not like the tap water with chlorine they let out a storm of slime everywhere but today all SPS corals are happy
My good bacteria is in my fuge and in live rock but i add more live bacteria in ampules weekly . My 55gal sump/ refuge also needs cleaning soon.

I new there was a dirty tank problem because some of my zooanthids were declining and not happy and you can also see the dirt when you stir up the sand . If you have a lot of flow you may not want to get too fine of a sand for the tank or fuge. I use crushed coral in my fuge. Make sure your fuge is easy to get to and to clean

The balance of nutrients (food&waste) and quality of water are always important and need to be monitored which means a lot of maintenance especially in a heavily loaded system. Remember this hobby is by no means a science and in no way close to a real ocean or reef system it is just a lot of freakin cleaning and work!

homebrewdude · #9 01/14/2007, 11:29 PM

What is the best way to seed the sand??
I assumed my live rock would do it.

Dux Hunt · #10 01/14/2007, 11:55 PM

Get a cup or two of sand from an established tank.

Pufferpunk · #11 01/15/2007, 01:51 AM

I always try to remember to ask a friend for a cup of sand from their fuge. Best cup I ever got was from Rod's!

Quote:

i add more live bacteria in ampules weekly

What product is this?

I was at a LFS last week & he was telling me sand-sifting stars were fine for my 5" DSB. Said a real DSB was like 12" & mine wasn't. I left the stars behind.

Rod Buehler · #12 01/15/2007, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
I always try to remember to ask a friend for a cup of sand from their fuge. Best cup I ever got was from Rod's!

What product is this?

I was at a LFS last week & he was telling me sand-sifting stars were fine for my 5" DSB. Said a real DSB was like 12" & mine wasn't. I left the stars behind.

5".. 12" The stars are still sifting for the critters that keep a sandbed functioning properly.

I agree with what tiny tentacle has said. If you want a star, or a goby, by all means do so, but be prepared (as he was) to swap out/sterilize the sand.

Quote:

Thanks for the post. What size sand do you recommend for a DSB? I am planning to set up a fuge in a week or two and wanted a DSB in there. Also what depths make a sand best shallow or deep? thanks.

I wish southdown was available. ESV has a really nice sand but its not available in too many stores around here. Carib sea aragamax is my next choice. (oolitic 930) but the only distributor is Wilsons, and if your store is buying from wilsons most of their prices will be through the roof. Silica can work well (grain size) but I dont care for the looks of silica. There is another company that has a nice fine arragonite sand, but I am drawing a blank on the name right now. The point is.. the finer the better.

As for depth. I like to see an average of 4" or more, but 3ish can work. Even a little less. Its likely that you wont be able to keep it all in a uniform depth, so if some areas have 2" and other areas have 4.5".. Its all good

tiny tentacle · #13 01/15/2007, 09:28 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pufferpunk
[B]I always try to remember to ask a friend for a cup of sand from their fuge. Best cup I ever got was from Rod's!

What product is this?

http://www.robsreef.com/Merchant2/me...ode=pbdigest12
Prodibio will cost you ~$2/week but i think it is essential for my tank.
24 hours after adding my first vial I noticed greater polyp extension on my SPS and some polyps seen for the first time since I bought the coral..
I believe there are trace amounts of nitrites/nitrates that don't register on any kit and this can be enough to inhibit growth of some more sensitive SPS.

ppurcell · #14 01/15/2007, 09:49 AM

My understanding is that the larger the grain size the deeper the sand bed has to be to create the anoxic zone for NNR. So for sugar-fine, you can get away with 3-4", 1-2mm grain size (like special grade reef sand) you need 6". Anything larger risks creating a detritus trap and it will may result in an eventual crash.

klasiksb · #15 01/15/2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tiny tentacle
Get goby's if you think they are cute , I think they make no difference.
Yesterday removed all of my sand from my reef tank to be washed and sterilized.

What do you mean by sterilized? Did you re-use the sand? How long was the sand in the tank?

tiny tentacle · #16 01/15/2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by klasiksb
What do you mean by sterilized? Did you re-use the sand? How long was the sand in the tank?

The sand was in the tank for 8 months about 1/2 thick
The grain size was one level courser than the super fine sand that would fly all over the place with my high flow SPS tank
I washed it in a bucket with scalding hot water rinsed it with more hot water then let it soak over night in vinegar. I strained it through a spagetti strainer to get rid of the rocks and clumps.
Then rinsed the sand in cold water. Slowly added back the sand with a 1 liter plastic bottle.

Dberg79 · #17 01/15/2007, 10:57 AM

Isn't vinegar supposed to dissolve the right kind of sand to be used in tanks?

Rod Buehler · #18 01/15/2007, 11:15 AM

yes, any form of acid will disolve aragonite.

Pufferpunk · #19 01/15/2007, 11:17 AM

TT, Does that product come refrigerated? Is it the same thing as Bio-Spira? An established tank, shouldn't need additional bacteria.

tiny tentacle · #20 01/15/2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
TT, Does that product come refrigerated? Is it the same thing as Bio-Spira? An established tank, shouldn't need additional bacteria.

My tank is established for many years with much substarte for bacteria etc but I don't trust it from my experience with SPS polyps extension and Prodibio. Bio -Spira may give the same effect but I did not try it. Prodibio is not refrigerated .

Pufferpunk · #21 01/15/2007, 11:32 AM

I really feel you are waisting your $$$ then. Bacteria either needs to be fed or kept cold, so it won't need to eat. If the bacteria isn't refrigerated it will be dead. B-S is the only product that contains LIVE nitrifying bacteria & it must be kept refrigerated.

I have sent a link for this product to the scientist on my forum. Let's see what he says.

tiny tentacle · #22 01/15/2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
I really feel you are waisting your $$$ then. It either needs to be fed or kept cold, so it won't need to eat. If the bacteria isn't refrigerated it will be dead. B-S is the only product that contains LIVE nitrifying bacteria & it must be kept refrigerated.

Thank you for the info .
This Prodibio stuff comes from france and they use some new technology to preserve the bugs .
I really don't care what is in the ampule I know it works
For all the money spent to keep little frags of SPS.... $2/week is nothing if it gives me the reassurance of low toxic nitrites etc.

BTW I did get a huge bottle of super glue gel from the hobby store on HWY14 in Crystal Lake for like $6 ....thanks

Pufferpunk · #23 01/15/2007, 11:49 AM

That's cool. I can't believe all the time I've been buying those tiny tubes of Super Glue for 1-2 frags! I love the big tube now & will never go back. A friend is buying a case of them, so I'll always be able to get them from him now.

As far as your bacteria in a bottle, I'm still interested in what my scientist will say. He knows all! I see what you're saying about only $2 though.

kimoy · #24 01/15/2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tiny tentacle

BTW I did get a huge bottle of super glue gel from the hobby store on HWY14 in Crystal Lake for like $6 ....thanks [/B]

what kind did you get. i'm runnig low. was it hobby town?(am i allowed to say that)

tiny tentacle · #25 01/15/2007, 12:37 PM

Yeah I believe it was hobby town next to dollar video
Name of brand I don't know but it works well .
They have several bottles , some are the regular thin Cyanoacrylate and not the gel Cyano. so read the bottle carefully.
The glue is just as you enter on the side of the first cash register