Am I skimping too much? First Saltwater Tank.

Silenthunder · #1 10/04/2002, 02:02 PM

When I was a kid I got really big into freshwater fish tanks. I had a 10, 55, and 125 gallon tank. I always wanted to try freshwater, but couldn't afford it. Now that I am all graduated from college and have a real job, I want to start going in that direction. I have my 125 set up in my new apartment with freshwater and powerheads/Out of tank filters running. After reading up on saltwater I think that I need to wait again before I get into saltwater. I plan on moving into my first house in a 1 - 1.5 years, and it sounds like moving a saltwater tank is a good way to kill everything off. In the meantime I have decided to set the tank up as a freshwater discus tank, with the intention of converting it to saltwater when I am in my new place. I have been buying equipment off ebay and plan to DIY a lot of projects (I am still pretty poor). Wanted to make sure the direction I am going will be able to handle a saltwater tank when I'm ready and that I'm not going to have to replace this stuff when I go saltwater. Here's what I've got so far.

What I already own:
125 gallon tank
Gravel (I know I'll probably need to get live gravel later instead)
10 gallon sump tank (Already have it, do I need to buy a 20 instead?)

What I've bought off eBay recently:
Iwaki water pump WMD-40RLXT (For Return from sump)
BIOBALLS 5 gallons worth
Mazzei venturi for reef aquarium skimmer (For my DIY skimmer described later. Here is specs for it http://www.mazzei.net/tables/0885xe.pdf)
Iwaki Water pump MD-100RLT (pumps through the venturi for the DIY skimmer)
PH meter

What I am planning on building:
Tank overflow
Protein skimmer with 6" reaction chamber
Sump
Distribution piping for return
Wet/Dry Filter box

So basically, I am planning on having an overflow box drain through a wet/dry filter into the sump. Hook a protein skimmer into the sump, pass the water through filter/activated carbon in the sump, and return to tank. I am handy with tools, but don't want to shoot myself in the foot by being cheap and DIY so many parts and buying other things used off ebay. If you see any reason my plan won't work please speak up. Thanks everyone. BTW this is my first post too.

Silenthunder · #2 10/04/2002, 02:13 PM

Realized I didn't give much info on the skimmer which is one of the parts I am more concerned about/investing most money in. My tank stand is 2' (Inside) high and this system is in the dining room so it needs to be pretty quiet so it needs to be inside the stand. I am planning on building the reaction chamber a little under 1.5' with a 6" diameter.

Silenthunder · #3 10/04/2002, 02:25 PM

Whoops
The more I look at my post the more I keep finding wrong with it. I gave the wrong link to the injector before. Not a huge difference, but here is the page for the correct model #http://www.mazzei.net/tables/0978e.pdf

MalHavoc · #4 10/04/2002, 02:32 PM

Silenthunder,

First, welcome to reef central.

Second. here's my opinion on stuff so far.

First, I'm assuming you mean "sand" and not "gravel". Gravel is a bad idea in a reef tank, because it collects waste and detrius and tends to cause nutrients like nitrate to accumulate. Go with a nice deep 4" sand bed, with sugar sized sand. You can use the Southdown Playsand from Home Depot as a economical alternative to spending 40 bucks a bag or whatever, provided you can find it.

You don't need bioballs in a marine tank, for the same reasons I mentioned above. Remove them entirely.

Your sump should be large enough to handle a power failure in which everything in the hoses leading to and from your tank drains back into the sump. Count on this happening at least once in your tank's life time. If the sump is too small, you'll end up with water on the floor.

You don't mention what it is you want to keep in the tank. A fish only tank can do without expensive lighting, but if you eventually plan on keeping corals, you will need some sort of lighting system that is powerful enough to provide enough light. How much light do you need ? well, depends up to you. What kind of corals do you keep?

You don't mention live rock. Live rock is an important way to add natural filtration to your tank, and is very important. Not only does it filter your tank water, but it gives you places to mount corals, and provides hiding places for fish and invertibrates.

This is an excellent article that you should read if you haven't already:

http://reefcentral.com/library/start...th_Marines.htm

hope some of this helps.

Silenthunder · #5 10/04/2002, 02:42 PM

Jason,
The thing to keep in mind is that although long term I am planning on moving toward saltwater, for the next year or so it will be a freshwater tank. For now, I am only buying the things that I will later need for saltwater, but can still use now.

Jason wrote:
"First, I'm assuming you mean "sand" and not "gravel". Gravel is a bad idea in a reef tank, because it collects waste and detrius and tends to cause nutrients like nitrate to accumulate. Go with a nice deep 4" sand bed, with sugar sized sand. You can use the Southdown Playsand from Home Depot as a economical alternative to spending 40 bucks a bag or whatever, provided you can find it. "

I have gravel for now, but when I convert to saltwater I know I'll need to replace it.

"You don't need bioballs in a marine tank, for the same reasons I mentioned above. Remove them entirely. "

Are you saying that wet/dry filters aren't used in saltwater? I thought that they were strongly recommended? That is where I was planning on using the bioballs.

The live rock/expensive lighting will of course wait until it is actually converted to saltwater.

The biggest thing I am wondering about is if I am underbuying the things that can be used in both freshwater/saltwater. I don't want to have to buy them again later. Also want to know if any of the DIY projects are too complicated for me to do them correctly. Don't want to waste a bunch of money on materials if the chances of me making something that works are too slim. Thanks for the fast reply jason!

Russ · #6 10/04/2002, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silenthunder
Are you saying that wet/dry filters aren't used in saltwater? I thought that they were strongly recommended? That is where I was planning on using the bioballs.

Bioballs used to be all the rage, before people realized they were acting as "nitrate factories." Slowly, people have been removing them and finding that their tanks are not crashing and their nitrates are undetectable.

Some fish-only tanks still use them. For a reef-tank, you're better off without them, and let your DSB and LR do the filtration for you.

For a sucessfull reef tank all you really need is: Good quality water to start with (RI/DO), Good circulation (> x10 tank volume), Good quality lighting, DSB, LR, and skimmer... probably missing something here.

Check this out:

http://www.reefcorner.com/reef%20keeping_101.htm

slipknottin · #7 10/04/2002, 03:38 PM

so what do you plan on doing with the discus?

your going to spend alot more money setting it up for FW then converting to SW

Slartibartfast · #8 10/04/2002, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silenthunder
Jason,
The thing to keep in mind is that although long term I am planning on moving toward saltwater, for the next year or so it will be a freshwater tank. For now, I am only buying the things that I will later need for saltwater, but can still use now.

That's an interesting constraint.

Quote:

"You don't need bioballs in a marine tank, for the same reasons I mentioned above. Remove them entirely. "

Are you saying that wet/dry filters aren't used in saltwater? I thought that they were strongly recommended? That is where I was planning on using the bioballs.

Definitely! No bioballs. I doubt you would find ayone here using them. They lead to a build-up of nitrates, which is toxic for corals.

Quote:

The biggest thing I am wondering about is if I am underbuying the things that can be used in both freshwater/saltwater. I don't want to have to buy them again later. Also want to know if any of the DIY projects are too complicated for me to do them correctly. Don't want to waste a bunch of money on materials if the chances of me making something that works are too slim. Thanks for the fast reply jason!

One thing I am not sure about is how well a skimmer works on a freshwater tank. I assume the principles are the same, but I don't know any freshwater folks that use them.

Most modern saltwater tanks have a sump, a skimmer, live rock and sand. That's it. So that is the stuff that will transition over. If you check in the DIY forum you will see people building everything -- tanks (mostly acrylic), skimmers, stands, and sumps.

Silenthunder · #9 10/04/2002, 03:44 PM

Dang. I already bought the bioballs. Oh well. I'll give them a try in the freshwater tank for a while or sell them back on e-bay. Just a thought, Do you think that the fine sand would be better for my freshwater tank for the time being anyway? I used to run the tank with the gravel and powerheads/undergravel filter, but I would have too much water circulation if I hooked up my power heads and the Iwaki now. I hate having a bare tank bottom, so would I be better off just getting the sand and using it in the freshwater tank for now anyway?

Slartibartfast · #10 10/04/2002, 03:53 PM

Live sand works because it is full of microscopic organisms, worms, etc. that process waste. These come from either an established tank or live rock. I honestly don't know if there is an equivalent for freshwater tanks. Having sand in a freshwater tank may just be a trap for gunk.

In any case, the organisms from freshwater wouldn't "transfer" to saltwater, so you be left with dead sand anyway. My advice is to use gravel (for your freshwater) and vacuum it peridoically. That's what my freshwater friends do. Then just ditch it when you go saltwater. Sand is not that great of an expense.

I guess I don't really understand why you are just doing freshwater for a year. If you know you are going saltwater, I would just go that route now. You can (and should) start slow. Lots of people move saltwater tanks without significant ill effects. If you just have live rock, sand and a few hardy corals I expect you could move with no problem.

Russ · #11 10/04/2002, 03:55 PM

From what I understand, skimmer's won't work very well at all in a FW tank. It will probably just run up your electric bill.

As for substrate, I'm not sure if you can use the same sand from a FW when converting to SW. I know the bacteria that you need are different (between FW and SW), and I don't know if you'll run into any problems here.

When you decide to start a SW tank, SD (southdown) play-sand is the cheapest (and probably best) thing to use (<$5 for a 50lbs bag). I wouldn't worry about buying substrate for you SW tank this early. Lighting on the other hand, take some serious consideration, b/c there are so many options.

I don't see why moving in one year is such a hurdle. You can just start over w/new substrate (and even save most of your old substrate) after you move. You might have a mini-cycle, but it you watch your water parameters you should be okay. People have moved their reefs, and while it's a p.i.a., I think it's worth it for a year of joy! FWIW - I'm gonna have to move in about a year too!

Salyers890 · #12 10/04/2002, 04:24 PM

If you want to go freshwater then convert to saltwater, my suggestion would be to house african cichlids . . .their water conditions are almost identical to that of saltwater - minus the salt. they need the hi PH and stuff. If you do this, a good idea would be to get aragonite sand rather than silica because of the buffing capacity. discus like little water movement, africans like a lot like in saltwater.

If you do a discus setup, go for the silica, it's inert and won't change your water parameters. Sand in a freshwater is nice if you don't have burrowing fish because it compacts so tight that the waste sits on top, allowing for an easier cleanup. the wet-dry is a great idea for freshwater, but your sump size is on the small side.

lighting can wait unless you are doin a planted tank.

Silenthunder · #13 10/04/2002, 05:07 PM

ahhhhhh my head is spinning

I really need to make up my mind if I am going freshwater or salt I think. OK, since it's my thread, I'm going to change it's direction. Do you think I should

1. do freshwater first, and then Salt, or
2. just go salt from the beginning.

Thoughts on plan 1
I am very worried about the move. Freshwater fish seem extremely expensive to me, and losing them would empty my pocketbook bad. I have moved the tank once before without having to worry about fish, and it was a big pain by itself. I am also concerned that I don't have the room to properly treat/store water. LFS told me that I should either buy water from them for water changes (I don't think so) or have storage tubs that I premix it in. I am in a smallish 2 bedroom apartment and don't have any room to store water. I know where to get discus cheap (Around $15.00) and my lfs would buy them back as adults for at least that much so I wouldn't lose anything on the cost of the fish. Everything for saltwater is expensive, so by buying some equipment now, and more later I can afford to buy good equipment and not middle of the road stuff. It lets me slowly ease into the cost of saltwater a little better. BTW, several of the discus sites I have looked at have strongly recommended a protein skimmer because of how sensitive Discus are, so although I have never seen one working in a FW tank, I would assume they do.

Thoughs on plan 2
it would be nice to use this first year to build up my live rock/substrate and maybe not have many fish in the tank so that when I get my house I am ready to do the coral, lots of fish and critters thing. While I am fairly certain that My pumps are right for a saltwater tank, it is going to require some creative plumbing to get the water velocity down enough for Discus. I already knew that was going to be a problem.

I know I am probably asking the wrong group for an objective opinion (all saltwater junkies), but if you were in my shoes which plan would you go for?

slipknottin · #14 10/04/2002, 05:11 PM

i just dont see the point in going from FW to SW. its going to cost alot of money to switch bewteen them.

discus need soft water and need a planted tank. your going to spend money on the lighting (that you wont use for SW) spend money to get pure water (if your tap water has a high PH or KH you need to use RO water) and your going to spend alot on the plants substrate and filters.

you will need none of that (except the RO) for SW.

id either make it FW and keep it that way or make it SW and keep it that way.

Silenthunder · #15 10/04/2002, 05:15 PM

I guess I am still not seeing the cost for switching. No one that I know with Discus has planted tanks, so although it might be nice, it must not be necessary. That would eliminate cost of plants, Special lights, etc. and like you said RO unit I am going to need anyway. There are no other investments in equipment that won't transfer to saltwater that I see. I appreciate the feedback though everyone. Keep them coming in.

slipknottin · #16 10/04/2002, 05:16 PM

so what are you going to keep the discus in? an empty tank?

slipknottin · #17 10/04/2002, 05:17 PM

and you still need filters and lights for the tank....

how are you going to keep the tank clean and be able to see your fish?

Salyers890 · #18 10/04/2002, 05:17 PM

I'd go with a SW fish only system, and adding the LR over time (use base rock to cut costs also). maybe some hardy corals like shrooms, xenia which will grow under lower lighting. after the move go with whatever you want.

This not only would give you the chance to spread your expences over a longer period of time, it gives you and your tank the experiences of the 'beginner' stage.

Silenthunder · #19 10/04/2002, 05:21 PM

Not a bare tank. I already have Gravel/rock/hood with normal lights from my freshwater days. Filtration be the protein skimmer, and filtration from sump tank. If I needed more I also have two really nice out of tank filters, again from freshwater days.

Silenthunder · #20 10/04/2002, 05:22 PM

Well everyone, heading home for weekend. I may/may not be able to respond anymore until Monday. Look forward to the suggestions I get. Thanks again everyone for their input!

slipknottin · #21 10/04/2002, 05:24 PM

alright, seems you have everything you need.

things to remember, discus dont like bright lights, get frightened easily, and dont like water movement.

also, you will need to be doing large (at least 35% water changes once a week)

you will also need to clean all your filters often.

i doubt the skimmer your making will pull anything out of the water, you need a relativily large and extremely powerful skimmer to get gunk out of FW tanks. hell its debated upon whether they pull enough out of SW tanks.

Jimbo327 · #22 10/05/2002, 03:49 AM

SALT SALT SALT SALT SALT.

What do you think we were going to say?

Jim

NewMariner · #23 10/05/2002, 05:06 PM

In all reality...a skimmer does not work on Freshwater tanks. I have tried..The problem with it is freshwater doesnt foam like saltwater. I keep both freshwater and saltwater tanks. If your going to eventually start saltwater then why start with Fresh? Discus are very high maintenance fish. The water has to be very clean..thus the reason most people keep them in bare bottom tanks so that they can clean the bottom of the tank easily and change water easily. Unless you really know what you were doing I would not build a protein skimmer. I would just buy one. And buy one of the better models. This is one area you dont want to skimp on being a noob to saltwater. Like has been previously suggested, I would just start out as a fish only system for salt. Get you some aragonite, cover the bottom hook up your sump minus the bioballs, turn on your heaters, put the salt in let it cycle and add some fish....Might get a few lbs of base rock or even live rock if you can afford it. I moved over 500 miles with saltwater fish and live rock(no corals) and all of them made it fine...The move isnt that bad if you plan it right. If you fail to plan then your plan will fail...
HTH
Tony

DgenR8 · #24 10/05/2002, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NewMariner
If you fail to plan then your plan will fail...

That's a keeper!

mikester · #25 10/05/2002, 11:17 PM

If you are just going to be moving within the same area, then I would not let that stop you from just going with a saltwater tank to start with. With careful planning, you should be able to move a tank from one home to another with a minimum of disruption and stress on the fish. Like everything else, planning is the key. Fortunately, you can find a lot of advice on this site and elsewhere on how to successfully move a tank (I know - I'm looking into the same thing, since we are hoping to move to another house in the next few months).

I just don't see why you would want to put a year or more of your time and effort into raising fish that you know you will have to get rid of. Just do the saltwater tank to start with, and when the time gets near for you to move, then do your homework.