Major reef problem.

fishnugget · #1 06/29/2006, 09:12 PM

all corals closed and looking poor. Been this way for 3-5 days. Put poly filter in. turned blue. Company said copper getting in tank. Said RO/di membrane probably bad. Put extra carbon, cuprisorb in tank along with poly pad. things dying. ordered new ro/filters.

Chemistry:
Nitate 25
DKH 12.5
Calcium 480
Phosphate 1.0 using Rowaphos. Maybe time to refill
Salinity .025
Copper does not read with any kit I have.

Any ideas? I am loosing corals at an alarming rate.

crustin · #2 06/30/2006, 09:19 PM

what inhabitates do you have, nitrate is high, and phosphate , do you have any algae problems?

Syffe457 · #3 06/30/2006, 10:08 PM

what is your temp in the tank? how old are you light bulbs? To start Id bring the Sality down to .023. How old it the tank? Do you use house hold Chem. (windex,pinesol, exe) around the tank at all?

mandrin13 · #4 07/01/2006, 07:45 PM

How high are the nitrates?clean up crew?Skimmer?etc?

I had the same problem you had,its getting better now.I added a sump,got a new skimmer(highly reccomend coralife super skimmer)added a refugium,added a huge clean up crew,and bought test kits,and other stuff.

If your tank is anything like mine was my nitrates were 220ppm and my lps were like lifting off the skeleton and stuff.Really sucks.A emporer400 CANNOT be used in a 55g reef for more then a year.

masterqaz · #5 07/01/2006, 09:19 PM

well your specs look fine other than the high phos, nitrate isnt going to be killing your corals at that consentration unless it went from zero to 25 in a day. Have you done anything to the tank in the last 3-5 days, i'd try to think back to when everything was running smoothly.

masterqaz · #6 07/01/2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mandrin13
How high are the nitrates?clean up crew?Skimmer?etc?

I had the same problem you had,its getting better now.I added a sump,got a new skimmer(highly reccomend coralife super skimmer)added a refugium,added a huge clean up crew,and bought test kits,and other stuff.

If your tank is anything like mine was my nitrates were 220ppm and my lps were like lifting off the skeleton and stuff.Really sucks.A emporer400 CANNOT be used in a 55g reef for more then a year.

what do you mean by the emp 400 cannot be used on a 55 for more than a year?, that confuses me.

fishnugget · #7 07/01/2006, 09:35 PM

Did massive water change today.

Ken668 · #8 07/03/2006, 11:53 AM

It seems everyone is over looking the possibility of copper. This could very easily account for your problem. If you have a TDS meter, what levels are you reading? If they are around 0-5ppm, then chances are copper is not the problem. If they are higher, then it might be likely you have a punctured membrane and it's allowing copper through. How old is your test kit? Might be worth the investment in a new one, if it's out dated. You can also take a water sample to get tested at most LFS, but they will typically have the same accuracy as the one you have (unless it's outdated). You can get a professional water quality testing, but that can be costly.

masterqaz, I believe he means that it will become a "nitrate factory" with continual use of it.

Hopefully this helps you. Keep us updated on the status.

- Ken

massman · #9 07/04/2006, 03:57 AM

pH?

fishnugget · #10 07/04/2006, 06:01 AM

is fine 8.0-8.26

massman · #11 07/04/2006, 07:59 AM

OK temp, pH and salinity are good.
The only other thing that can kill off stuff this quick is a heavy metal/chemical leaching in from somewhere.
Since a water change did nothing (although it does need a little while to take effect), then I'm guessing there is a problem with the water.

Every once in a while (in Australia at least) the water authority "flushes" the systems, and whilst its not detrimental to humans it may be to our fishy friends. So if you are unlucky enough to have an ineffective ro system at the same time as the flush, your out of luck. This will also explain why a water change made no difference. Same water effectively going back in.
contact your local water supplier and see if they have recently done something.

Also, how are your fish behaving?

fishnugget · #12 07/04/2006, 08:19 AM

I have just ordered a more up to date ro/di with cloramine. Using carbon, polyfilter, cuprisorb.

I just also disconnected my phosban reactor w/ rowaphos. Material 3 months old. will chnage.

This is so frustrating.

amcarrig · #13 07/04/2006, 01:37 PM

Do you have a ground probe in the tank?

fishnugget · #14 07/04/2006, 03:34 PM

do now

masterqaz · #15 07/04/2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

[i]
masterqaz, I believe he means that it will become a "nitrate factory" with continual use of it.

- Ken [/B]

Thats the point of filters is it not?

Ken668 · #16 07/05/2006, 05:55 AM

Well, filters like those will lead to high levels of nitrates which will be difficult to control. There are better methods such as aggressive protein skimming that will pull out waste before it gets a chance to break down into nitrates. This eliminates the constant "struggle" many talk about with high nitrate levels. This same rule applies for bio-balls. Ask how many people here use them and why they don't. You'll get the same response, "nitrate factories". I hope that helps.

ddenham · #17 07/05/2006, 07:27 AM

well, back to the copper question. I guess the company said you had copper in the water because the poly filter turned blue. According to poly filters website that sounds accurate. So we have to assume the copper is the root problem. I don't really understand why, however, an old membrane would let copper into the system. I would think the carbon prefilter would remove the copper (according to here and here )before it even hits the membrane, but if that's old too, I guess it would be useless. You should replace the membrane and prefilters to be on the safe side

Anyway, It seems to me you have two choices:
1: completely break down the tank, clean it out with diluted muriatic or vinegar (to get the copper out of the pores in the glass and the silicone, replace the LR and start over. Perhaps a fellow reefer or lfs could hold your animals while you make the change, or you could put them in a small quarantine tank. This would be a real PITA and would obviously be really expensive, but you would absolutely know that you removed the copper from the system.

OR
2: keep running the poly filters for like a year, along with carbon (replaced often)and do some big water changes, with the improved RO membrane, and hope you get it all out. It's a lot cheaper, but you'll never know you've gotten it all out. copper "chelates" and attaches itself to the rock and sand, and might not all come out with the polyfilter.

good luck...keep us informed

samtheman · #18 07/05/2006, 12:39 PM

I don't understand where the copper could come from? I am not so sure its a copper problem at all. You water would have to be very high in copper and its not soluable in normal drinking water due to the PH. So if its copper, where is it coming from?

amcarrig · #19 07/05/2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishnugget
do now

Did you have one before the recent problems started?

hercpilot · #20 07/05/2006, 09:19 PM

I had a similar situation in my first tank about 15 years ago. After many iterations to bring the tank around, I discovered a failed powerhead I was using for circulation. That unit introduced heavy metals and stray voltage.

Lesson learned:
1) Routinely inspect ALL equipment for proper operation
2) Do not use submersible pumps - external is the way to go; and,
3) Do not introduce electricity into the water column - refer to #2, external is the way to go.

If you have submersible pumps, heaters or any other type of equipment, you may want to make sure all are in good working order.

Good luck.

fishnugget · #21 07/05/2006, 09:23 PM

do you find out if a pump is creating the problem? what and how do you check?

I keep doing water changes, and polyfilters keep turning blue.

ddenham · #22 07/05/2006, 10:42 PM

try dropping a polyfilter into some new RO/Di water, see if it turns blue

theyeg2 · #23 07/10/2006, 12:27 AM

Do you have any young children or visitors that may have dropped something into the tank like a penny?

Are you having any other problems like red slime algae or excessive diatoms?

reiple · #24 07/11/2006, 08:01 AM

have you heard of the story about a little girl dropping pennies inside the sump so her daddy can save money for his hobby?

someone or something might be putting toxic material inside. good luck i hope you solve your problem.

mr.wilson · #25 07/16/2006, 11:35 PM

A blue Poly Filter is clear evidence of a substantial amount of copper in your system. The reaction your corals are having confirms this.

Do you have any copper fittings in your source water effluent? You need to make sure that all of your compression fittings have plastic nipples, not the standard copper ones. The drinking water attachment that some filters have must also be plastic lined, as many are copper.

Treated source water (RO/DI) is very aggressive, and will quickly dissolve any copper it comes in contact with.

Poly Filters, SeaChem's Cuprisorb, Kent Marine's Toxic Metal Sponge, and Aquatronics' Coppaway will all remove any free or bound (in calcareous media) Cu.

Have you added any new rock or sand recently? Copper is bound in calcareous media and will leach out in time. Some retailers will "recycle" rock and sand that has been in there fish systems where copper medications are used.

Testing your tap water, treated source water, reservoir water, and tank water for copper will help isolate the source of the problem.