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  #1  
Old 07/08/2006, 07:04 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Adding bacteria from the sea

This is just something I was thinking about and I thought I would share it.
Today like most weekends in the summer I went out in my boat which is in Long Island in New York. We have a hugh difference in high and low tide causing many tidepools to be formed. Most of these are muddy and filled with snails, horseshoe crabs, worms and a few different types of crabs. I have been visiting these places for most of my life (I'm old) Most of the time I go collecting for amphipods and other interesting stuff but whatever I collect it also comes with mud. I add these amphipods and whatnot including some mud to my reef every week. I believe the bacteria in the mud is beneficial to my reef, along with the amphipods copepods etc.
In my opinion, if you use ASW and have for a few years your reef only contains a very few types of bacteria. There are all sorts of bacteria and they process different types of wastes differently. I believe that by adding natural bacteria (not make believe bacteria in a bottle) you will be increasing the waste processing mechanism in your tank. When I tell people this they tell me they are afraid of disease causing bacteria being added and I guess that may be a concern. I have been doing this for a very long time (since Nixon was president) and never had a problem, but it may be because I am adding New York bacteria from cold water and maybe the NY paracites can't infect tropical fish. Of course I am just speaking out loud here and it is all conjecture but I was thinking it may be why my reef has lasted so long and never crashed. It may be beneficial especially for a DSB (which I do not have). My fish also never get sick either, I can't see how this would have anything to do with that fact either unless for some reason New York paracites impart some type of immunity on the fish to tropical paracites (conjecture again)
I am in no way saying to go out and do this, I am just telling of my experiences. I also know that not everyone has access to muddy beaches.
Have a great day.
Paul
  #2  
Old 07/08/2006, 10:36 PM
scarter scarter is offline
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I agree, any sand you can swap with other tanks or any diversity you can get from any source helps.
BTW paul, I love the conjecture, you are one of the most informed reefers I have come across!!
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  #3  
Old 07/09/2006, 05:03 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Thanks Shane, Thats because I got old, well, older than most here.
paul
  #4  
Old 07/10/2006, 12:38 AM
Chihuahua6 Chihuahua6 is offline
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Well Paul you have brought up many different ideas in this hobby that most have not considered or dared to try. It's hard to argue with success. I'm afraid I am not educated enough on the subject of bacteria to come to any conclusions though. Perhaps Ron Shimek could answer your question? What do you think?
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  #5  
Old 07/10/2006, 04:09 AM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Amanda, it wasent a question but I am sure Dr. Ron would have an opinion on it. I am also not an expert on bacteria but it seems to work. Makes sense to me.
Have a great day.
Paul
  #6  
Old 07/10/2006, 01:10 PM
poedag poedag is offline
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i have noticed that when i do a water change with NSW from here at UCSB, everything seems to brighten up and i have to think that your idea is at least partialy if not entirely correct!

ps - I really enjoy reading your posts, you always have interesting ideas!
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  #7  
Old 07/10/2006, 01:25 PM
Chihuahua6 Chihuahua6 is offline
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You're right, not a question. I always do that when I'm reading the forums and fighting to keep my eyes open. I need to get to sleep earlier ; )
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  #8  
Old 07/10/2006, 03:28 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Amanda, I do that all the time.
Poedag, I once started an entire aquarium store with NSW from NY. I am really amazed anything lives in it. The salinity here is very low, so low that I can't measure it on my hydrometer. The calcium is also very low. I have to add salt to use it. It looks very dirty but I know from experience (and diving in it) that it looks like that because we have a mud bottom and a great difference in tides causing turbulence which agitates the bottom causing it to float. If you hold this water to a light you will see thousands of things swimming. Tropical water is dead. We get so much plankton from the nutrients in the water, not necessarilly pollution. All of the worlds fisheries are in northern waters, all the great schools of food fish are in northern waters, that is because of nutrients that begin the food chain.
Anyway, this water and the associated mud or bacteria does seem to be very healthful to a captive reef. If you have been studying reefs (artificial and natural) long enough you can tell when they are as healthy as they should be. The vast majority of captive reefs fall very short of what healthy animals should look like. Maybe they need some influx of differing bacteria once in a while. I don't really know but I do know that it is one aspect of reefing that is totally unknown. We worry about calcium, nitrates, pH and all sorts of things but the one thing that filters our water, bacteria is never thought about except that we have some. I believe we need a variety of these organisms to keep our reefs healthy. Just my thoughts.
Have a great day.
Paul
  #9  
Old 07/10/2006, 03:47 PM
poedag poedag is offline
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very well put Paul, i think part of the problem is that outside of a controlled lab enviornment bacteria is so very very difficult to study. I am in the planning stages of an experiment right now to study the bacteria/microbs/fungal spores/..etc that live and are transported in fog. the sterilization of the equipment is a huge headache in the field. now imagine the quantity and diversity of bacteria in a tropical reef tank, i don't think it even compares. perhaps in the (distant) future there will be an easy way to type out bacteria like we test ammonia, but for now i think you've got the right hunch, the more divestity in the bacteria the better, just like ecosstems around the world, increasing diversity increases stability and health.
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  #10  
Old 07/10/2006, 06:37 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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So far it's working,
Bacteria in fog? Sounds cool to me.
I like to study supermodels but I can't get them to come over.
  #11  
Old 07/10/2006, 07:03 PM
CaptiveReef CaptiveReef is offline
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Thumbs up Recharging the system.

Anytime you add real salt water, mud, sand, micro fauna, you really boost the enviroment in the tank!!!! Just the microscopic plankton from the water feeds all the corals, clams, worms.
Adding the mud really supercharges the system!!
During the summer I add a few 5 gallon buckets of salt water from the beach, it works wonders.
If I lived in a warm climate I would be pumping seawater 24/7 through my tank.

CaptiveReef
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  #12  
Old 07/10/2006, 07:36 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Captive I know what you mean. I can't believe there are people living on the sea using fake water. I guess many people feel their fish come from sterilized water. Did you ever go to some of the places where they collect fish? Some of them are pretty bad.
Paul
  #13  
Old 07/10/2006, 09:37 PM
poedag poedag is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul B
So far it's working,
Bacteria in fog? Sounds cool to me.
I like to study supermodels but I can't get them to come over.
it's pretty interesting work. we do a lot of fog based studies, mostly on how it affects the water budget of trees. as for the second part, i keep running into the same problem!
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  #14  
Old 07/11/2006, 07:56 AM
reiple reiple is offline
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Interesting. Something good going here. I think I will collect sea water this end of July when I go to the nearest reefs.

Like transported fishes and corals, would it be necessary to fill up the bags with oyxgen to keep even a few of the naturaly occuring bacteria alive?

I once dumped natural seawater from my LFS. After 3 months I saw small swimming specs (which I was afraid were some kind of parasites) in my sump. Close inspection I found they were jellyfishes. Small like pin head size.

The most beautiful reef tank you see anywhere is nothing compared to a real tropical reef.
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  #15  
Old 07/12/2006, 07:59 AM
Putawaywet Putawaywet is offline
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Paul I've long held fast to the argument that our closed systems are nowhere near as diverse as the real deal, if for no other reason than natural competition is constantly weeding out the weaker organisms.

I have read here on numerous occasions people proclaiming (present company excluded) that their sandbeds are "teaming" with life, but I still back the belief that it is a small representation of what it would be if sampled from an open environment. It's just natural selection for the strong to out compete the weak. Our sandbeds and rockwork can't help but, over time, become home to a proliferation of a select group of organisms that happen to find our setups to their liking. So IMO, when I read that catch all phrase "teaming with life" I pretty much just translate that to "a whole lot of the same handful of organisms."

As for NSW I have been using Catalina NSW out here for almost a decade now with nary a problem. Yet every time the topic comes up there always seems to be someone who feels compelled to insert the "it might be OK, but why risk it" caveat. into the conversation. I know from first hand knowledge that the Long Beach Aquarium uses Catalina NSW as their sole saltwater makeup. And somehow, in spite of this "questionable" water collected from the god forsaken confines of the Long Beach harbor, they managed to be the first aquarium to successfully raise to adulthood weedy seadragons. So go figure. And the list doesn't end there, year after year, they have rasied dozen's of animals within their tanks.

As for the pathogen argument the same nagging question keeps popping up... how is it that someone who is so worried about using safely collected NSW, can be so willing to add live rock to their tank without so much as an after thought? Did that rock not come from the ocean as well? And how do they know where "over there" really is? Some third world country where sanitation is questionable at best, and sewage treatment is something that might very well be relegated to the "mainland"? Better still, if hobbyists had even the slightest inkling as to the number and variety of naturally occurring bacteria found in fish poop they would never put their hands in their tanks again.

So, while I understand that it's human nature for people to be generally cautious, I think that sometimes (at least in this hobby) it might actually be a bit of a handicap when taken to the extreme. So while those of us who have been in the hobby for more than a couple-three years may not fully understand why things work they way they do, i think we tend to be a little more accepting of the fact that they just work. And we're perfectly Ok with that. At least I know I am.

Just one reefer's opinion... your mileage may differ.

Brett
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Last edited by Putawaywet; 07/12/2006 at 08:22 AM.
  #16  
Old 07/12/2006, 11:13 PM
erc111 erc111 is offline
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OK, I've been reading paul b.'s stuff, here and in other threads, and here's the question.

If you can only get new stuff (bac. etc.) from a fl. gulf coast beach, should you take some sand for the sump (bb tank) or swirl the water around a bucket of sand and just take the water?
I've done both BTW.
  #17  
Old 07/13/2006, 04:20 AM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Putawaywet, I agree that a tank teeming with life is a lot of the same thing. It has to be, the strongest will survive.
Erc111, since I am not a researcher I can only go by my experience. I have added a tray full of mud to my tank a few times. I did not let the mud go all over my reef because, well, it's mud. I did let it stay in there a while though so the bacteria and other organisims can populate the tank. I have no Idea if the bacteria live a long time. It doesen't matter because I add NSW and while I collect amphipods I add them with the mud or seaweed they come with. Again, I put them in a breeding trap so the organisims can swim out. If I was adding mud all of these years my reef would be all mud.
I personally have never had a problem with diseases or paracites which I have not seen in almost 25 years. Maybe other peoples tanks would not fare as well. There are too many variables and too many oceans where we can collect to make a scientific statement that is true in all cases.
I do know that my reef is "teeming" with life and it is a variety of species. I can't see the bacteria but there are tiny things swimming in there that I have never seen in another tank. I also get swarms of plankton occasionally which may be worm larva or some other animal which I collected.
As I always said, all of your animals came from NSW with natural mud.
Have a great day.
Paul
love that mud

  #18  
Old 07/13/2006, 03:12 PM
Agu Agu is offline
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When I go for a walk on the beach I bring two bags.

One to pick up the garbage .


And a ziplock for interesting things I find. Macroalgae, rocks that would be good for mounting frags, coquina clams (the mantis' favorite), and whatever. I can't say it's helped my tank but I can't say it's hurt my tank either. (disclaimer, I don't do this if there's red tide in the area)
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  #19  
Old 07/13/2006, 05:18 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Agu, I have been doing that all of my life. Even my friends today say that I am happiest when I am looking under a rock.
We have great parties on the boats but when I see that it is low tide I feel the pull of the tide pools. Even though I have been to these places hundreds of times I have to go and look for something new.
Paul
  #20  
Old 07/14/2006, 02:10 PM
GreshamH GreshamH is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Agu
When I go for a walk on the beach I bring two bags.

One to pick up the garbage .


And a ziplock for interesting things I find. Macroalgae, rocks that would be good for mounting frags, coquina clams (the mantis' favorite), and whatever. I can't say it's helped my tank but I can't say it's hurt my tank either. (disclaimer, I don't do this if there's red tide in the area)
I hear yah on the second bag Sometimes I wish I had a TRUCK to haul on the junk I see
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  #21  
Old 07/14/2006, 10:37 PM
CaptiveReef CaptiveReef is offline
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Thumbs up Moorish Idol

Paul,

From the pics of your tank, man everything has exploded with great growth and extension. And your Moorish Idol looks fantastic!!!!! The top fin streaming, I have seen past pics of him, and he looks better now!!!!
I still can't get over the age of your tank.

I think you have the oldest tank around.

CaptiveReef
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  #22  
Old 07/15/2006, 07:09 AM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Captive, thank you but I have to tell you that picture of my Idol is an old picture. His dorsal fin is no where as long as that any more. His body has gotten larger but his fins have shrunk. I wish he still looked like that. All of my corals seem to be growing nicely as they do in the summer when I add bacteria and what not. If I could figure out exactly what I was adding that was such a benefit that would be nice but until that happens I will just add everything. I am going out boating again today and of course I will be slogging around in the mud collecting stuff.
You can see the Idol here in a recent picture. He is still very lively and healthy but I can't keep up with feeding him. I used to think you could feed these fish two or three times a day but I believe four or five is better. Of course it really messes up your water. Also my reef is much too small for an Idol. I see that he gets frustrated having to turn around so much. They are long distance swimmers since they eat mostly sponge and it only grows in small widely spaced patches.
(I saw Tony last week)

  #23  
Old 07/15/2006, 01:21 PM
CaptiveReef CaptiveReef is offline
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Thumbs up It still looks great!!!

The Idol still looks great! Idols do have special requirements, I sent you a pm, please give Tony my number.

Thanks, Greg


CaptiveReef
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  #24  
Old 07/16/2006, 06:25 AM
dougie dougie is offline
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awsome tank paul!
going to start using NSW in my own setup now.

Cheers
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  #25  
Old 07/16/2006, 08:05 AM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Dougie, if I lived in Australia I wouldn't ever think about using ASW.
I did my first SCUBA dive in Sydney in 71.
Paul
 


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