moving tank with deep sand bed

crnaguy · #1 04/15/2003, 10:39 AM

i will be moving an established 75 gal with a dsb about 45 minutes to new home. what do i do with this sand--if i take it out i will be mixing all different layers. if i keep it intact i'm not sure i can safely move the tank without cracking. help!!

WaterKeeper · #2 04/15/2003, 10:51 AM

Crn,

There is not alot you can do to about disturbing your DSB when moving. You may see an increase in nitrates for a few days after the move as the bed reestablishes itself. The problem should be short lived and things will return to normal

rshimek · #3 04/15/2003, 11:39 AM

Hi,

This is a situation that has come up many times before in the forum.

There is a LOT you can do to mitigate problems. Do a forum search using "DSB" or "Sand bed" and "moving" as your search words, and you should find several threads discussing various aspects of the problem.

If you have specific questions after examining the threads, please ask.

crnaguy · #4 04/15/2003, 03:07 PM

i did search the forums and read the FAQ's but didn't get any help. so i'll repeat ... should i take the dsb to move the tank? is there a problem mixing this sand when it goes back in? do i risk moving the tank with 6 inches of sand and risk a crack?

thanks

rshimek · #5 04/16/2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crnaguy

Hi,

i did search the forums and read the FAQ's but didn't get any help.

Depending on the search words I used this morning, in searching
this forum over the last year or so, I got between 18 and 40 hits. The long answer to your questions are there.

so i'll repeat ... should i take the dsb to move the tank?

Of course.

is there a problem mixing this sand when it goes back in?

Definitely. See the theads for ways to move a sand bed properly.

do i risk moving the tank with 6 inches of sand and risk a crack?

Yes, and yes.

Martyn · #6 05/09/2006, 03:34 PM

I did a search on moving sand beds and the threads that ron has mentioned are not there NOW ? prior to this thread when you do a search on moving sand beds.

Last thread you get when you do a search is this one.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...oving+sand+bed

and nothing after that ?

Regards
Martyn

WaterKeeper · #7 05/09/2006, 05:50 PM

I couldn't find them back when this thread appeared over two years ago Martyn. Even with my extra powerful search powers that I have today I have no idea of what thread (s) Ron was talking about. It sure would have been nice if Ron had told us the magic search words.

Randall_James · #8 05/10/2006, 02:50 AM

http://reefcentral.com/forums/search...der=descending
I started at 1900 hits and got this filtered down as much as I could. You can loosen it up a bit if you need more but I was pretty specific.

Martyn · #9 05/10/2006, 07:40 AM

Hi Randell James.
I was mentioning about the threads prior to this thread when it was first posted.
The fact that I could not find the threads that gave full details on the advanced forum which was Rons own at the time.
Other thread after this yes I know can be found.
However thanks for your input.

Regards
Martyn

mikeatjac · #10 05/10/2006, 07:55 AM

I tried to move a DSB once and I will never do it again. If you have to take it out and I am sure you will and if it is well established, I would just use it to seed a new DSB.

akrimmel · #11 05/10/2006, 09:44 AM

everyone has their own mthods do what you feel is right!

Randall_James · #12 05/10/2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martyn
Hi Randell James.
I was mentioning about the threads prior to this thread when it was first posted.
The fact that I could not find the threads that gave full details on the advanced forum which was Rons own at the time.
Other thread after this yes I know can be found.
However thanks for your input.

Regards
Martyn

Ah ok, if you ask, they say none of these threads were deleted but I to have had problems finding them as they did the "UnSticky" thing and they disappeared pretty rapidly.

I talked with Ron S. as well as Anthony C. in person about this and the consensus is pretty much same. Keep a few pounds for seed material and dump the rest if the tank is well established.

This also gets rid of the "phosphate" issue that old sand beds can present. (Old tank syndrome).

I just hate taking chances with my livestock is all so tend to be a bit on the conservative side. (some of my stuff was awful expensive is all to risk saving a hundred bucks or so)

jmcmahon66 · #13 05/10/2006, 01:55 PM

I planned on taking my sand when I moved, but after seeing all the detritus and muck in the sand, I decided against it. I kept a few pounds to seed the fresh new sand I purchased, and had no issues whatsoever. HTH

DaveG99 · #14 05/10/2006, 02:12 PM

You can always clean the sand by rinseing it really well in with the hose then spreading it out on a sheet of plastic to let it cook in the sun.

darkangler · #15 05/11/2006, 12:38 AM

I've got a similar issue. I bought a very established refugium from someone and have to move it this weekend. It has been running for about 5 years and has a depth of 6-8 inches. Tons of life and some rock. The point was to move it to a friends tank. I figured I would empty it, move it, set it back up (not attached to the main tank) and let it settle for about a week or two. Then loop it into the system. Any ideas?

WaterKeeper · #16 05/11/2006, 10:22 AM

Randall, that certainly narrows it down.

I actually refined the search to include only threads where Ron either started a thread or answered one on the old Ask Doc Ron Forum but never did find the elusive "Doc Ron Moves His DSB" thread.

I do want to add some caution here. Giving sand a FW rinse then sun drying it will kill off all the bio-mass on the sand but it leaves behind a bunch of organic residue to pollute the tank when it is reused. It will result in a cycle and a real big algae outbreak.

To reuse sand I do this. I soak the sand in a 1/4 strength solution of bleach overnight. I then rinse it well with a lot of agitation to remove any remaining, now loosened, film. I then do another soak, this time with a 1/4 strength solution of vinegar if it is aragonite sand. Citric acid is even better. This etches off the sand surface and any remaining deposits. After about an hour soak, or when it stops bubbling, I rinse the sand well and let it air dry. You end up with pretty much aragonite base sand in this manner. With silica sand the acid step really doesn't do much so I'd skip it.

When Southdown was widely available I would never have gone to this much trouble but now it is worth it as good aragonite is hard to get or expensive. I would keep about 10% of the original sand in SW and not clean it. This will help seed the bed. Adding a detrivore kit can also help. Do be prepared to keep your critters in quarantine for a couple of days as there is always a chance for an ammonia spike if the pore structure of the sand has trapped organic matter. If you properly clean the sand there should be only a minor problem and it will be short in duration.

I am sure there are other methods but this one should work pretty well.

Ah, the joy of moving.

Randall_James · #17 05/11/2006, 11:17 AM

What is needed is a way to "unbind" the phosphates from the aragonite.

Come on chemist guy, is this a chemical or physical bond and how about a simple, cheap and effective way to salvage this substrate....

I knew you could do it

WaterKeeper · #18 05/11/2006, 11:25 AM

Randall,

That vinegar soak I spoke of should help remove phosphate that accumulate near the sand surface. It probably won't eliminate any contained deep in the sand's pore structure but most will be bound close to the surface. The vinegar itself does not really attack calcium phosphate to any great degree as the carbonate provides a better reaction mechanism but in etching the underlying carbonates it allows it to be rinsed free.

Randall_James · #19 05/11/2006, 11:41 AM

so we just sacrafice the outer most material of the aragonite grain and take the phosphate with it.

Works for me, now do you have an idea of "quantity" of vinegar needed in order to etch enough of the surface before it is neutralized?

or are we just going to do the substrate fizz thing?

WaterKeeper · #20 05/11/2006, 05:56 PM

Yes indeed Randall. We're just stripping away a small amount to aid in cleaning it.

White vinegar runs about 4-8% acetic acid, so it is not very strong. If you have a lot of sand to clean you are going to need a few gallons. Since this is my Newbie thread I'm not going to get too heavy into stoichiometry and just use fizzing as the general test. If it fizzes for about 30 seconds to a minute you probably added enough. How's that for true science?

Randall_James · #21 05/11/2006, 09:50 PM

Pretty much the answer needed actually

thanks

WaterKeeper · #22 05/12/2006, 11:32 AM

I said NTTH

I forgot this thread is on Reef Discussion. WK dusts off his calculator and starts to compute molar ratios......

I'd stay with the fizz

Randall_James · #23 05/12/2006, 11:41 AM

Just do not start telling me the ratio of grain size loss relative to the number of fizzy bubbles coming off based on an experiment preformed with "poprocks" and a bottle of coke...

(really would have to smack you one)

NCreefwannabe · #24 05/28/2006, 01:21 AM

If the tank is small enough, and your not moving to far. Couldnt you leave the sand in the tank, with just enough water to cover the sand bed? Ive done this 3 times now and never saw any ill effects from it.

WaterKeeper · #25 05/28/2006, 02:07 PM

That works for me. I've move up to a 55 with the bed in place for a short move. I always have some plywood support under any tank's bottom which makes such a undertaking somewhat safer.