Live Rock...Is there a point??

Fraggle Rock2 · #1 02/25/2006, 02:46 AM

Recently I have been debating about what "type"of live rock would be a good choice for my aquarium in terms of filtration.

Of course, "researching" the web one would normally come to the conclusion that the best rock for filtration would be the most porous/least dense rock. So, perhaps something like "Fiji" rock.

After seeing some Haitian rock, not really known for it's porosity and hence denitrification abilities, I started to think about the actual "function" of live rock. I mean, it basically gets covered with all sorts of living things such as corraline algae and corals etc... So, how is it possible that the so-called biological filtration process can even occur?? Not to mention the fact that I really don't see how water can possibly pass through the rock at a rate high enough to be provide useful filtration, even not even being covered with algae??

So, is there any actual evidence to suggest that live rock does anything significant? Is the Haitain lettuce leaf rock getting a bad rap? It looks pretty nice to me, so is there any substantive evidence to back up my "educated" reasoning that filling a tank with this isn't the best choice?

Who decided that "live rock" actually contributed anything anyway?

iCam · #2 02/25/2006, 02:54 AM

A lot of the process takes place within the rock where there is little oxygen contact.

I personally like Fiji rock since it is more dense, and the fact it is easier to aquscape with. It was the only rock I really had in my tank.

I don't really like Tonga. I don't like the branch look, but that's just my personal preference.

Valab · #3 02/25/2006, 10:46 AM

I've noticed that folks use the term 'porous' in two ways. One way is what you might think of as microscopic porosity - essentially holes that are tiny, too tiny to see without magnification, that could be inhabited by protist sized organisms. The other is essentially holes that, depending on their size, could harbor anything from tiny worms to whole fish.

My assumption has always been that if you're going for 'diversity' in larger animals (snails, worms, 'bugs' of all sorts) you need various macro-sized holes.

If you're taking about bacteria, I doubt that the 'porosity' of the rock really matters in a typical tank, especially if you have a sand or crushed coral substrate.

GroYurOwn · #4 03/03/2006, 06:39 PM

test your theory. try to establish a healthy tank wothout any filtration, or live rock and see if it cycles all on its own....my bet is on the liverock...

Drewpy · #5 03/04/2006, 09:33 AM

it b/c it is easier to get coralline algae established--- base rock can be a magent to nuisance algae, live rock has a natural defense against it

Gary Majchrzak · #6 03/04/2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fraggle Rock2

Who decided that "live rock" actually contributed anything anyway?

Several reef aquarium pioneers- and tens of thousands of reefkeepers thereafter.

GroYurOwn · #7 03/04/2006, 10:10 AM

if you do some research on RC, you'll find that most people dont believe the whole "corraline fights bad algae". i have had plenty of encrusted rock that gets taken over buy hair algae. the point of live rock is to establish the cycling process like it is in nature, you cannot do it witouht LR, or some kind of filter, i cant understand why someone doesnt get that...as far as one kind over the other, i dont pay any attention to that personally, i figure if it was good enough in nature, its good enough for my tank.

GroYurOwn · #8 03/04/2006, 10:12 AM

oh, yeah, i am pretty sure that mother nature had a small part in the whole "live rock" actually contributes something decision...

Shoestring Reefer · #9 03/04/2006, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GroYurOwn
you'll find that most people dont believe the whole "corraline fights bad algae".

I agree

Drewpy · #10 03/04/2006, 07:14 PM

just read it "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert M. Fenner...
and it made sense to me so i thought i would pass it on..

I personally notice brown algae can grow on my powerheads but never on my live rocks...

Nicholo · #11 03/06/2006, 12:46 AM

I thought perhaps the OP was referring to how the surface of LR can get covered several times over with corraline, thereby reducing its filtration capabilities. Is this true?

Dewey115 · #12 03/06/2006, 08:34 PM

I would guess that if Corraline dies off then new corraline can regrow over the old? Unless some of it dies however I dont see how it would form think layers seeing as how it all would need light to survive, so I would think most of the time there is only one layer covering it. I have seen many rocks where the corraline is thinker than in other places though. I have seen chips with a good mm or so of corraline, but to me it always looks like it is one thicker layer, not many smaller ones, but I dont really know the answer, this is just my guess :-/

Also I think its worth pointing out that the saltwater hobby didnt really have a strong following until the use of LR became common enough that people saw how much better the tanks did. I dont think you need much more proof than that. Many people feel LR is THE single biggest "advance" in helping to successfully keep marine life.

Rick

BeanAnimal · #13 03/06/2006, 08:50 PM

I think "live rock" is a complete waste of money. I setup a 75 with about 100 pounds of very porous base rock from Reefer Rocks in Florida. I used an SSB and seeded it with less than a cup of live sand from the pet store. I dumped it in a pile and didnt even bother to spread it out. A few weeks later I added a single 1 pound hunk of live rock from the LFS, just to get he coraline going.

I added a fish or two 3 weeks later and am now close to 8 monhts into the tank. My cycle looked just about like everybody elses. I had a diatom bloom, then came a bit of cyano. All of the rock turned brown with diatoms 5 weeks in, and within 2 months was ALL covered in coraline.

8 Months in I still have 0 trates, trites, and no problems. I have some green algea on the side glass because I overfeed a bit and underskim (soon to change).

Large Tang
Large Maroon clown
Cleaner wrasse
Medium domino damsel
blue yellow tail damsel
Royal Grama
2 Large ceriths
1 Astrea
1 peppermint
1 blood red

The ceriths are multiplying, as are the asterina stars, and I have thaousands of mini brittles that seem to just multiply by the gaziliions.

I run a 20 cheato, hair algae fuge with a single 18" 50/50 bulb tha t only coves part of it.

Is my rock live? I dunno, but I have 1/10 as much for it as most others and it does the same thing as that expensive rock everybody buys.

I did not have the hitchhiker problems or anywhere near the alae and die off problems that the "live rock" crowd seems to have on a new setup.

My point is, what are we calling live rock anyway? My base rock by all accounts is "live" now. Is it as "alive" as the stuff that come from fiji, who know and who cares. I had less problems to get to the same place, a healty tank.

Bean

GroYurOwn · #14 03/06/2006, 09:00 PM

of course its live, and it makes a difference, thats why you seeded it. great, you went the cheap route, thats pretty much what TBS LR, or gulfrock is, they just drop pourous rock in the ocean for a few years, point is, its all live, its all being used to establish the natural cycle. its a great point that SW tanks didnt take off until the use of LR caught on. its a simple to answer question though, if you think its a farse, dont use it....see how far you get. be sure to take some pics of that thriving tank that has no form of biological filtration for me, cause that would be the accomplishment of the century!

BeanAnimal · #15 03/06/2006, 09:03 PM

I didn't say there was no biological filter. I firmly beleive that my LR is just as efficient as the LR people pay megabucks for.

If you don't use rock, then you must have other surface area for hte colonies to grow.

I was just making that point that before an in depth discussion of LR be delved into, that we define exactly what LR is.

Bean

Fraggle Rock2 · #16 03/06/2006, 09:52 PM

Well, I am aware of the success of the reef community.

However, there is definately more to nutrient export from an aquarium than live rock. At a minimum, most people do some water changes;and/or have a skimmer. So, it's possible the LR is not contributing significantly.

What I was really just pondering was the flow of water nutrients into rock once it's covered in corraline and corals etc..; and if this negates the benefits of highly porous rock. Hence, is Fiji "better" than Haitian? I haven't done much research to see what's been published on the subject, so perhaps it's a dead issue. I just don't know the answer.

I am not one to simply believe something because everyone says it's so, especiallly considering there are many factors involved in a reef set up; and there are so many different set ups. Not to mention the abundance of misinformation and "experts" reinforcing it all over the internet [perhaps including myself at times].

But, I think at the very least I will need to read a bit more on the history of reef keeping.

Dewey115 · #17 03/06/2006, 10:08 PM

Also note that when you pay more money for better rock it has little to do with the bacteria (thus the technicality of "Live" Rock) but there are tons more critters that live on rock that are beneficial to the tank. If you only use base rock you risk not having all of the critters available to you, though it is fine to just buy a piece or two and let that seed the rest of the rock in your tank, just wanted to point out there IS a reason and use for expensive LR, just only use small amounts and let it grow to everything else.

GroYurOwn · #18 03/07/2006, 08:19 AM

i dont personally think all the hitchhikers are that important. i have never bought gulfrock, ot TBS rock, and my tank has done fine. i think what your paying for most of the time has to do with supply and demand more than the fact that one kind is better than another. when i first set up my tank, being that i did not have much money to spend, i bought a small amount of LR, and an equal amount of very light dead rock, six months later.....no one can tell which is which. so...if the question is do you have to buy expensive stuff to make it work, no freaking way.

Dewey115 · #19 03/07/2006, 01:05 PM

Well firstly no two tank setups will turn out the same (even with the same vision and end goal), so what one person has success with doesn't mean everyone will, but LR is one of those things where there really isn't much reason not to use it, and alot of reasons to use it. Now like I said before, you dont have to fill your tank with store bought LR, but it IS good to buy at least a few good pieces and then let that spread to the rest of the tank. Using dead or base rock exclusively limits the biodiversity in the tank, yes the bacteria will eventually colonize all the rock in the tank, but you will not have the critter/pod/worm/etc. life you would if you bought a few nice peices. I guess if going as cheap as possible is the goal then only use Lace/base rock and you will have all the bacteria filtration you need, but dont expect all the fish and inverts to like the lack of natural foods in there. Seeing as how many of us already put many hundreds (and often thousands) into the tank, I dont really think that its worth it to save $100 on a few pieces of good quality rock when it really does add so much to the diversity. By all means cut some corners and use mostly dead or base rock, but I really cant at all recommend anyone totally skip getting some good LR in there. Maybe your tank is doing good or even great now, but most experts agree the more biodiversity the better, is it really worth it? Maybe your tank would be that much better if there was more food and pods in there. People see huge improvements in their tanks when they start feeding from the bottom of the food chain (where you will be severly lacking if you have no good LR in there anywhere). So of course its up to you, you will have all the bacterial filtration you need either way, but the cheaper route gives you little biodiversity, the extra $100 gives you exponentially more. Its seems pretty clear cut to me but everyones goals are different, but if you cant afford that then you are maybe in the wrong hobby?

Rick

jda · #20 03/07/2006, 04:54 PM

Mined base rock is just so ugly. Have you ever seen how cool MI is? Most of the time, and there are exceptions to this, if the cost of live rock over dry rock is prohibitive, then you are probably going to struggle with this hobby. It is not a cheap hobby, what what hobbies really are?

If you are going to go cheap, why not use lace rock instead of hunks from a quarry? At least lace rock has some cool shapes.

Besides, how else would you get a mantis if you got dry rock?

Steve Richardson · #21 03/07/2006, 06:00 PM

yep. I think the biggest benefit is added biodiversity. The more the merrier, and get it from different places. I'm a *big* believer in having loads of scavenging tiny critters to help reduce organic debris. I like to think in my own tiny mind that it produces a more stable, diverse, and resiliant environment. It also looks great and gives a natural look to the tank, not to mention hiding places etc.

Cripes... Sometimes the rock is more entertaining that the fish when its really crawling with life. I can be hard to believe all of the stuff going on there. sponges, wormy critters, tiny mollusks, 'pods, yeah the periodic mantis or 2, starfish, etc etc etc.

Id guess that denitrification is likely far outweighed by a good healthy sandbed, but I'm largely speculating there... both are used and both will level out once the tank is stable.

In any case.. it doesnt hurt. Dont fight it. ;-)

Cripes... I've got to put my tank back up. Its been down for a couple years now and I'm really missing it.

GroYurOwn · #22 03/07/2006, 07:15 PM

i agree with the opinion that the liverock is the most interesting thing in the tank. i can sit and stare for hours looking for little critters, that makes it all worth it.

Dewey115 · #23 03/07/2006, 07:51 PM

I dont know how many nights I have stayed up for hours in the dark just watching everything on my LR with a little flashlight. I still spend a good half hour every other day or so just looking it over and around rocks and all the more hidden areas I dont see as easily when I am just normally wandering around the house.

cdraughon · #24 03/07/2006, 09:11 PM

My only concern with new LR is the pest critters. When I setup my tank, my wife suffered through an isopod problem. When I upgrade, I am considering "cooking" my new rock before using it. It seems this way I will still have the bacteria, but limit the chance of pests. Anyone agree with this thought?

BeanAnimal · #25 03/07/2006, 09:44 PM

Why bother cooking the rock? Why not just get dry base rock and cede the tank with a known "bad bug free" rock or some sand.

I have limpets, all kinds of worms and other bugs, chitons, sponges, 3 colors of coraline, and countless other critters as a result of the frags and a few rocks that others have given me (non larger than a softball) when fragging their corals. As I stated, I did not buy an premium live rock (well 1 pound and it had coraline, but little else).