Is this LR doomed?

[kbmdale]

Originally posted by SeanT
By responding to the earlier comment you have proved my point.

The facts are "cooking" live rocks works and you are wrong.

Whats your definition of works.

Advil works on a headache, but won't do much for vomitting..

While cooking your rock may be benificial for some situtations, I really don't see how it will promote coraline growth at all. See in my mind if your thinking of cooking your rock you got serious issues and have exhausted all other possable solutions and need to start over. I see this suggested to people who have DIATOM BLOOMS... Thats just wrong... I'm not ripping on anybody but there seems to be a cult following around here on certian subjects which may easily lead alot of NEWBIE reefers down a discouraging road.....

OFF THE PODIUM.

[Fliger]

Why does everyone get so worked up about this? Personally I don't know that I believe in the "theory" of cooking, but I've been doing it to some MI and Buna Branch I picked up a few months ago and its quite incredible. I test for po4 with a D/Merck kit every few days and its amazing to see the po4 slowly diminish. I started with the high range Salifert kit, now I need a low range kit. Also the crap on the bottom of the bin gets less and less every time. The rock get shinier and shinier.

Again, I don't know that I believe in the "layer" theory, but the constant shaking and water changes will get your rock to the point where its so damn clean its amazing. Take a look at cidory's, weatherman's (or is it weatherson) and many others who have tried this, then do it yourself with a few pieces out of your tank. You WILL want to do the rest of your rock.

(and now i'm unsubscribing )

[kbmdale]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Yeah, not one of my prouder moments... In my defense, however, they did insist that we solve the argument by boxing. Maybe they were trying to compensate

Back in high school, WAY BACK lol, I helped the special ed gym class teacher. Anyway, this one SPECIAL kid attacked me, I let him beat me up cause I don't think I could have ever lived down beating up a SPECIAL ED student...Turns out I should have punched his lights out cause I was known as the guy that got beat up by the RETARD...so you see it may have been worse to have had him kick your butt...

[moose8721]

Suck that old sand out with your upcoming large water changes. That should solve the sand problem and help the algae problem. Add some of your rock to seed the coraline growth and be patient.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Fliger
Why does everyone get so worked up about this? Personally I don't know that I believe in the "theory" of cooking, but I've been doing it to some MI and Buna Branch I picked up a few months ago and its quite incredible. I test for po4 with a D/Merck kit every few days and its amazing to see the po4 slowly diminish. I started with the high range Salifert kit, now I need a low range kit. Also the crap on the bottom of the bin gets less and less every time. The rock get shinier and shinier.

Why does this surprise you? You're taking a chunk of live rock and denying it any of the normal phosphate inputs that it would get (food, doodoo, etc.) along with doing frequent water changes. Of course the level of phosphates is going to decrease, just as it would if I removed all of the fish and other living things from my tank and did frequent water changes (well, I already do frequent water changes, but you get the point).

What I would suggest is that you put your rock back in the tank after you've cooked it and then yank it out after six months. You'll find that the water in your cooking bin tests just the same as it did when you started the first time. Long story short--you've spent months on getting stuff out that will just go right back in unless there is no life in your tank, and along the way you've killed off a lot of stuff on your live rock. You could have solved any algae issues with good old fashioned husbandry.

[kbmdale]

Originally posted by moose8721
Suck that old sand out with your upcoming large water changes. That should solve the sand problem and help the algae problem. Add some of your rock to seed the coraline growth and be patient.

What sand PROBLEM? He said it was brown...DIATOMS ANYONE.. sounds like the tank is just going through its cycle to me. They will go away.

[Fliger]

Damn, I didn't unsubscribe in time.

Bottom line is I have cured live rock many, many times. This time I had the luxury of time since I'm waiting for a new tank. So I thought I'd try it. I have cured LR for this long before and the rock was not this clean.

I know husbandry very well. I have never had algae issues, ever. Why would "good old fashioned husbandry" not start with as clean LR as possible? I don't feel the need to start this tank with anything less than the best.

Anyway, its not applicable to everyone and I doubt I'd have the patience to pull all LR out of an existing tank and run it thru the process. I just had the luxury of time this go around.

Carry on with your mission to rid the world of cleaning their rock in an effective manner. More power to ya.

"unsubscribed" for good

[kbmdale]

Fliger,

In that situation I would have done the same. Its not an issue with doing it. The issue that has come about is that more and more this has become the answer to every problem. There is siyuations where cooking or recurring is the best answer, but to just tell everyone regardless of the problem to cook thier rocks is obsurd.

[fishman805]

It's like Frik and Frak..... Looks like the two of them follow each other around when it comes to this issue....

Cooking LR would be a good thing to do if you've got old nasty LR and you want to "start over" with it but a "good" cleaning will do just as well.... I've used the process myself "to a point" and by that I mean that I cured the LR in total darkness for about three weeks to kill off the algae that had taken it over the first time I had it in the tank.... But I believe what also helped was washing it off about every week and putting it in new fresh SW and then back into the darkness ( with a powerhead running in the vat )..... I set the tank up again and I never had any algae or a diatom bloom and it's still very clean and the coraline is growing back on it just fine.....

Phosphates ( I believe ) are something that "bleeds" out of the LR due to all the stuff that's gotten into the deep pores of the rock itself and I think that's why "cooking" seems to work .... But I will tell you something else.... If I've purchased cured "or" uncurred LR from ANY vendor, the last thing I would want to do is kill it by cooking it..... I personally like all of the life that comes on "live rock"... You can deal with phosphates by doing water changes and by running phosban or something similar in a reactor designed for that purpose.....

Diatom blooms are a fact of the cycle period ( for most of us ).... What I would suggest is to let the tank run... Keep what's in it ( but perhaps replace the sand with new ) and keep doing water changes .... Also, keep just your actinic lamps running, that will help promote coraline growth and reduce algae and cyano growth...

Bob

[moose8721]

He said the sand looked like it was caked full of old detritus from the prior owners tank. I think it's a good idea to periodically rotate/replace a portion of your sand anyway. Unless you're subscribing to deep sand bed philosophy,which I know nothing about.

[pcpm75]

If your are going to switch out your sandbed this weekend is it possible for you to take before and after pics so we can see the results of this change during the next few months? If it works well it would save alot of people from listening to these people bicker anymore. Plus I would like to know how this works out for you, it could save alot of people from cooking their rock win their is no need.... Just trying to make the bitter people laugh....

[dirtyvegas]

Fliger, how exactly are you suggesting he clean the rock, by shaking it in clean water and doing water changes.?

dv

[Markk96]

Just a reminder to keep this thread going in a positive way.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Highlander
Sean T,
Can you please post some pictures of your tank.
I find it surprising that such a strong advocate of rock cooking doesn't have a gallery full of evidence.
That should settle the argument once and for all.
Thx

Evidence?
I don't need to supply you with evidence or anything else for that matter.
If you want evidence, ask the dozens of reefers who have done it.
Oh wait, they testify to it daily but strangely that is not good enough for youor certain other individualys here?
So, with that in mind, no "evidence" will be enough.

Want pics of my tank?
Not much to see after the heating episode.
But here are some updated pics of my sump area.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=705474
Go to page 15 to see them.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Well, amputating your leg to get rid of athlete's foot "works" if that's how you want to look at it

The truth is that you're pushing your bare rocks agenda on anyone who will listen, which unfortunately is a lot of people since on a website, it's not the qualifications of the person that counts, it's the number of posts. I like to get information from someone who can keep a tank running for more than a few months at a time.

So, maybe 2% of the people you're pushing this on need it (and I'm being REALLY generous from my point of view on this number). The other 98% are damaging their tanks' ecosystems. I know you hate live rock (just look at all of the posts where you refer to it as "aquacluttered") but if you keep this up, eventually people are going to figure out it's just a bandaid and you'll become as irrelevant as Bomber and his "just ditch the sandbed and you'll never have any problems with your tank" nonsense.

Ahh more worthless ignorant, uninformed hyperbole.

[dirtyvegas]

Thats an awefull mess sean. Sory for your loss

[reefkeeperrut]

agree w/Sean on the cooking process. It does work - the proof is in the bottom of the dunking containers.

It's easy for some to bash what they've never tried.

[kbmdale]

Originally posted by reefkeeperrut
agree w/Sean on the cooking process. It does work - the proof is in the bottom of the dunking containers.

It's easy for some to bash what they've never tried.

NOBODY EVER SAID IT DID NOT WORK.... What was said and you don't get, Its not gonna fix a lack of coraline algae on his rock.... It is not the first solution to most problems. all it is going to do is frustrate a guy who watched nd empty tank while his rock cooked for 6 weeks when he pulls it out to find less coraline than before....

[dirtyvegas]

ok can sombody clear up "cooking rock" 4 me please, never hear this term before..?

[SeanT]

Here is the process.

Originally posted by SeanT
The purpose of "cooking" your rocks is to have the bacteria consume all (or as much) organic material and PO4 stored on, and in, the rock as possible.

The first step to this is commitment.
You have to be willing to remove your rock from the tank.
It doesn't have to be all at once, but I feel if you are going to do this do it all. In stages if that is easier but make sure that all of it gets done.

The new environment you are creating for your rock is to take it from an algal driven to a bacterial driven system.
In order to do this, the rock needs to be in total darkness to retard and eventually kill the algae's on the rock and to give the bacteria time to do the job.

So basically you need tubs to hold the rock.

Equipment needed.
1. Dedication.
2. Tubs to cook rock in. And an equal amount of tubs to hold the rock during waterchanges.
3. A few powerheads.
4. Plenty of buckets.
5. A smug feeling of superiority that you are taking it to "the next level."
6. Saltwater, enough made up to follow the instructions below and to replenish your tank after removing rocks.
Here are the steps:

1. Get into your head and accept the fact you will be making lots of salt water if you aren't lucky enough to have access to filtered NSW.
2. Explain to significant other what is going on so they don't flip out. This process can take up to 2 months. Prepare them in advance so he/she can mark it on the calendar and that they won't nag about it until that date arrives.
3. Setup a tub(s) where the rock is to be cooked. Garages are great for this.
4. Make up enough water to fill tub(s) about halfway and around 5-7 buckets about 60% full.
5. Remove all the rock you want to cook at this stage. (The rock can be removed piece by piece until you are done.) I suggest shutting off the circulation beforehand to minimize dust storms.
6. Take the first piece of rock and dunk it, swish it, very, very well in the first bucket. Then do it again in the 2nd bucket, then the third.
7. Place rock in the tub.
8. Repeat steps 6 & 7 to every piece of rock you want to cook at this time. The reason I suggested 5-7 buckets of water will be evident quickly...as the water quickly turns brown.
9. Place powerhead(s) in the tub and plug in. Position at least one powerhead so that it agitates the surface of the water pretty well. This is to keep the water oxygenated. You can use an air pump for additional oxygenation if you wish. Only one powerhead per tub is needed. Remember the powerheads main responsibility is the oxygenation of the water.
10. Cover the tub. Remember, we want TOTAL darkness.
11. Empty out buckets, restart circulation on main tank.
12. Wait.
13. During the first couple of weeks it is recommended to do a swishing and dunking of the rocks twice a week.
What this entails is to make up enough water to fill up those buckets and the tub the rock is in.
First, lay out your empty tub(s) and fill buckets the same as before.
Then, uncover tub with the rock in it. Take a rock and swish it in the tub it's in to knock any easy to get off junk.
Then, swish it thru the 3 buckets again, and place in the empty tub..
Repeat for all your rocks.
Then empty the tub that all the rocks were cooking in, take it outside and rinse it out with a hose.
Place tub back where it was, fill with new saltwater, add rocks and powerheads, and cover.
Wait again until the next water change.
You will be utterly amazed at how much sand, silt, detritus is at the bottom of the tub and every bucket. It is amazing.
At times the stench was so strong I gagged.

How it works:

Some FAQ's.
When re-introducing the rock to my tank, a month or two from now, should I do that in parts to help minimize any cycling effect(s)...if there are any?
I never have. Really after a very short while, the ammonium cycle has been established. That's not what you're worry about though, it's the stored phosphates and that you have to wait it out.
When they are producing very little detritus - you'll know - then I would use them all at once.

Would running Carbon filtration and/or a PO4 reducing media help/hurry/hinder the process?
I wouldn't fool with it. You don't want the detritus to sit there long enough to rot, release water soluble P again. You want to take it out while it's still locked up in that bacterial detritus.

I would say that 85% of my exposed rock had Bryopsis (hair algae) covering it.
There isn't a single visible strand on any rocks my tank now.
Remember, the key is patience. Let this process run its course.

And a few last minute tidbits I remembered.
Your coralline will die back, recede etc.
My thoughts on this are GREAT!
Now my rock is more porous for additional pods, mysids, worms etc.
Coralline will grow back.
Throughout this process the sponges, and pods on my rock have not died off.
Every time I do a water change they are there and plentiful.

Remember, once you place your rock back into your tank you will need a specialized cleanup crew.
I recommend Astrea's and Cerith's, 2 to 1.
-Astrea's are great at harvesting algae.
-Cerith's are great at harvesting other algae - and - astrea poop.
-Cerith's will make the astrea poop easier for you to harvest with a skimmer.

Taken from the "How to go Barebottom thread."

But remember, you do not need to run a barebottom tank to benefit from rock "cooking".

hth,
Sean

[SeanT]

And actually, in the long run it WILL help with coraline.
"Cooking" rocks removes phosphates.
Phosphates inhibit calcification.
Less phosphates = easier coraline growth.

[andycook]

Removing a saturated sandbed wil also help coraline growth.

[Highlander]

Wow Sean T,,
So much for trying to get some empirical evidence asked for nicely!!!
I was sorry to hear about the tank meltdown, it wasn't a thread that I had followed.

However, I still have not seen any tanks with cooked rock after say six months in "use" which is what I was hoping to see.

Here's why:
I have a 120 with about 100 lbs of cooked rock which I purchased on RC, in there , and perhaps 50 lbs that came from another tank without cooking.
After two months I have good coraline growth on the sides of the tank, and on the older rock, however the cooked rock still looks as sterile as pumice, and not at all attractive.
So what does this stuff look like with some months on it?

I have also read of aggressive algaes taking over on cooked rock in lack of competition from more benign species. That would be a concern. Any one have any experience of that.

[Johnsteph10]

I don't remember Sean saying initially that cooking rock with directly promote corraline growth - but just above he states how it will affect it directly.

Sean is very helpful and always willing to discuss things. There are those detractors out there that only serve to disagree. I don't see where they offered helpful advice in this thread.

The rock is likely loaded with crap - literally and figuratively. If this was rock fresh from the ocean loaded with life it might be different. You'll only encounter more obstacles in the long run if you don't start out with the best possible chances...

In this case - rock cooking is a great way to clean up the rock. Good corraline growth will come with good husbandry skills.

[kbmdale]

Originally posted by SeanT
And actually, in the long run it WILL help with coraline.
"Cooking" rocks removes phosphates.
Phosphates inhibit calcification.
Less phosphates = easier coraline growth.

you do realize that the moment you add fish, food, anything to the tank the rock starts sucking up phosphates agian.. Yes you are starting with clean rock but its just a matter of time before its right back where it was that made you cook it. Are you gonna cook it agian. But once agian the point was he has waited 2 months and no coraline progress, came here looking for an solution he could jump start it with and got COOK YOUR ROCK (which means wait about 3 more months for coraline growth)...LOL great advice.