Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?" - Page 9

lillibirdy · #**201** 01/11/2006, 05:06 PM

Desert Bandits, there is quite a lot of descriptions of peoples specific tanks in this thread. With this rubble idea, I don't think anyones is exactly the same, kinda of a new idea, and it would be hard to generalize about differences between rubble bottom and DSB or whatever else, because there is not a rubble standard...at least not yet, or not in this thread. We are sort of pioneering some new ideas, and getting excited about our findings, and sharing them.

My favorite part is finding out that what was not supposed to work, is working just fine.....lol. I would not survive long in other threads because my tank is supposedly set up all wrong, and I would be/have been slammed for everything from my CC to my RUGF. I love this thread!

Paul B · #**202** 01/11/2006, 05:33 PM

Lillibirdy, If they slam you in another thread let me know, your tank is set up almost like mine and they really can't slam me.
I am going for a AS (asphalt bed)
Paul

lillibirdy · #**203** 01/11/2006, 05:41 PM

Why thank ya daaaaaaalin. Now tell me more about the asphalt bed?

Paul B · #**204** 01/11/2006, 07:20 PM

Actually I was kidding about the asphalt bed but since you asked. There is a quantity of NY asphalt in my tank that I collected underwater locally. In Ny they dump a lot of asphalt on muddy beaches to control erosion. This piece was underwater fifty years before I aquired it. It was full of amphipods. From adding this stuff so often there are a lot of pieces of it in my substrate. It is very brittle.
Paul

barryhc · #**205** 01/11/2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whaledriver
Thats fair enough to say. But someone who doesnt know enough is going to make a mess of things.
What if you put a few inches of CC with a few inches 4-6 inches of rubble in the bottom of a tank? Whith low or no flow to blow out the detritus you would end up with a mess that wouldnt work. Shades of gray are nice if you know whats going on in you tank.

That's what were all here for. The thread was not started for newbies, and good information has been given here. If a newbie only reads this thread, he is in big trouble regardless.

"Black" and "white" are the most dangerous "viewpoints" that anyone can adopt.

> barryhc

lillibirdy · #**206** 01/11/2006, 08:03 PM

Good point Barry, this is the advanced topics section of RC, I hadn't thought of that.

Paul, I knew you had some asphalt in there, just thought maybe you were going to start a new adventure in reefing with ALL asphalt, vs the variety of stuff that makes up your substrate and rubble and rock. Wouldn't surprise me none..lol. But then it has been working so good for so long, maybe I can't see you changing anything after all...lol.

algaeguy · #**207** 01/12/2006, 11:57 PM

Good points by all. What is really interesting here is that even with an idea like a rubble bottom, we have a number of different approaches to accomplishing it. In fact, we all seem to have some slightly different definitions of the term "rubble"!

I think that lillibirdy hit it on the head: A lot of folks categorically state that these types of systems cannot work! Paul's tank and quite few other's prove that school of thought wrong!

Nonetheless, I do agree with barryhc and Whaledriver that this is really not beginner material; that is, not unless you have a really good handle on husbandry and an understanding of the potential problems with coarse substrate materials.

I'm still kind of wondering about the whole "detritus issue". I mean, yes, it's not a good idea to allow uneaten food and fish waste to accumulate in excess. However, I'm sure that some detritus must be realatively inert at some point, right? Has anyone ever really studied the compostion of detritus in captive aquaria, or assessed its ability to degrade water quality if small amounts do accumulate? Just curious.

Also, unlike barebottom systems (which I think share some kinship with a rubble bottom), these tanks foster greater biodiversity due to the susbtrate material used and the development of semi-cryptic areas, which means that many beneficial animals can assist in the processing of this material.

Have you you notice the behaviors of your fishes in rubble zone tanks? They are almost constantly picking through the rubble zones, much as in nature. I think that something positive is happening down there! I would imagine that fish "just doing there thing" also assist in maintenance of these systems.

Again- thanks to all for sharing. This thread has really tuned into a great source for unique concepts...keep it coming!

Scott

Paul B · #**208** 01/13/2006, 05:09 AM

Scott, I have no data on how detrimental long term detritus is but as I said, last year I removed my UG filter plates, I wanted to see what was growing under there since it was 25 years since I looked under there. Of course there was detritus ans some of it may have been there since the eightees and it did not seem to do any harm. I did get some cycles of algae and I still do but I think that would happen with any tank that is old enough. I doubt there are any studies done on reefs over thirty years old or even ten years so it's all conjecture.
Paul

barryhc · #**209** 01/13/2006, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by algaeguy
Also, unlike barebottom systems (which I think share some kinship with a rubble bottom), these tanks foster greater biodiversity due to the susbtrate material used and the development of semi-cryptic areas, which means that many beneficial animals can assist in the processing of this material.

Have you you notice the behaviors of your fishes in rubble zone tanks? They are almost constantly picking through the rubble zones, much as in nature. I think that something positive is happening down there! I would imagine that fish "just doing there thing" also assist in maintenance of these systems.

I could not agree more Scott. I think the bio diversity, and the "bethnic fish activity" are the really HUGE features of this idea. I think I'm going to include a "Rubble Zone" in about 1/3 of my 200 gal. set-up for exactly these reasons and benefits. Possibly quite similar to PaulB's set-up, but maybe with a bit more "large rubble" ( 1-3" )
if that makes any sense.

Any thoughts? > barryhc

algaeguy · #**210** 01/13/2006, 10:15 AM

Interesting stuff, Paul. I really wonder if the concerns about SOME detritus in our systems are over-stated? Perhaps there is some "good" to its presence in our aquaria...As more peopel try alternative methods like rubble bottoms, maybe we'll get a better idea.

baryhc- I'm using larger (like 3"-6") pieces of broken Tonga Slab rock, interspaced with smaller (1"-2") pieces. It forms a loose "matrix" with lots of nooks and crannies that the fish just love poking through and foraging among. In fact, it appears that my Swalesi Basslet regularly moves across the full length of my tank from the main rock structure on the left side, all the way to the right by using this "network" of "tunnels", never exposing himself until he reaches his "destination"! It's cool to see!

I think sand and then a rubble zone in the center or of to one side would be awesome! The beautiful thing about a rubble bottom is that you "make your own" by smashing up inexpensive pieces of base rock, or by collecting rubbble from the good stuff at your dealer's.

Can't wait to hear what you come up with!

Scott

barryhc · #**211** 01/13/2006, 10:39 AM

Think of it this way Scott. The animals in the rubble are much better at processing "whatever", than a skimmer is, and it is "natural" and beautiful as well.

Now let's keep those skimmers running while we're at it folks ! !

Thanks > barryhc

danieljames · #**212** 01/18/2006, 06:27 PM

Really enjoying this thread. I had a thought on your nitrate situation scott. Is it still undetectable? I was thinking perhaps there is more area for denitrification in many smaller rocks, as opposed to fewer larger ones. Kinda like more surface area with a jar filled with bb's than one filled with marbles. I don't know at what depth in a given substrate/rock that denitrification occurs optimally, but perhaps it is at a smaller depth, say within an inch or so of a rock. That would make a rubble bottom with appropriate sized rubble much more effecient at denitrification than a display filled with just larger rocks and bb (assuming detritus removal is equal in both systems). Probably still not as efficient as a sandbed, but still efficient enough with proper husbandry to run a cool system.

algaeguy · #**213** 01/18/2006, 11:37 PM

Hi danieljames:

Yep- the nitrate is still undetectible. I am interested in your thoughts on the rubble as an efficient denitrification zone. I, too have thought about this, and I'm inclined to agree with you! I recall reading somewhere (Maybe in Sprung and Delbeek) about denitrification ocurring within the rock itself, so perhaps the larger sizes of material that we are talking about ARE performing denitrification in a more efficient manner!

I agree that it may not be as efficient at denitrification as a DSB, but it may be a very viable alternative. It's funny, when I first set up my rubble system, I anticipated greater biodiversity (in terms of fauna) in the system, but perhaps some detectible nitrate. After almost a year, I've been pleasantly surprised with no detectible nitrate AND great biodiversity. Like you mention, it is a cool way to run a system!

Scott

Orangeman · #**214** 01/18/2006, 11:43 PM

How about some pics people? Didn't anyone get a digital camera for XMas?

lillibirdy · #**215** 01/19/2006, 03:25 AM

I got one, but still can't make it take pics good enough to post.....I will keep trying.

barryhc · #**216** 01/19/2006, 09:58 AM

Yeah Scott, pictures ! !

Your making us suffer.

> Barry

algaeguy · #**217** 01/19/2006, 10:05 AM

I'm kind of embarrassed, but I have never been able to successfully post pics on RC. "Photographically Challenged" would be an understatement! I'd love to share my tank, though. Perhaps I can take some pics this weekend and email them to someone who can?

In the meantime, lets see some pics from people who can post tem! LOL

Scott

Konadog · #**218** 01/19/2006, 03:08 PM

Scott, you can email them to me or even put them on a laptop and bring them to me at the next meeting, and I'll remove them!

How's that for an offer.

barryhc · #**219** 01/19/2006, 07:21 PM

When I first read about Scott's "rubble" bottom, I had these visions of carefully selected 3/8" to 3/4" dia. "tonga branch".

These visions were "dancing in my head". They still are, and now I can wait for another year to revisit Disney World.

When I get there I will be looking for any version of "branch or rock" that I can get out of the state "legally" ?

> Barry

algaeguy · #**220** 01/20/2006, 12:49 AM

Hi Ken:

I'll shoot some pics this weekend and get them to you!

Barry:

I think the idea of using Tonga branch for the rubble bottom is a very cool one. I've used mostly Tonga slab pieces, but I think that the branch might actually make more sense, as it will provide a more "open" structure. Man, even with an idea like a rubble bottom there are different ways to go!

Scott

Konadog · #**221** 01/20/2006, 01:06 AM

I'll try to get a few pictures of the Tonga branch rubble bottom at the Long Beach Aquarium tomorrow to show off for everyone.

Don424 · #**222** 01/20/2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by algaeguy
Hi Ken:

I'll shoot some pics this weekend and get them to you!

Barry:

I think the idea of using Tonga branch for the rubble bottom is a very cool one. I've used mostly Tonga slab pieces, but I think that the branch might actually make more sense, as it will provide a more "open" structure. Man, even with an idea like a rubble bottom there are different ways to go!

Scott

Yeah.............busted up Tonga branch on the entire botton.....sweet. I think I'll do that on my new 75g and a screened reverse flowUGF.

danieljames · #**223** 01/20/2006, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by algaeguy
Hi danieljames:

Yep- the nitrate is still undetectible. I am interested in your thoughts on the rubble as an efficient denitrification zone. I, too have thought about this, and I'm inclined to agree with you! I recall reading somewhere (Maybe in Sprung and Delbeek) about denitrification ocurring within the rock itself
Scott

The anaerobic zone within our rock is definately an area for denitrification. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could offer something about the optimal depth that this occurs. I would think there would be variables, ie: porosity, etc, but if there is a measurable area that could be looked at in a generalized way with different types of rock/rubble (like pacific vs atlantic), you could choose your rubble accordingly. I like the idea. Blasting a rubble bottom with a powerhead a couple of times a week to loosen detritus would not be a big deal to me. Not a difficult thing to do imo.

algaeguy · #**224** 01/20/2006, 09:07 PM

danieljames:

Yep- you'd be surprised how easy it actually is to maintain. And detritus has not been at all difficult to remove. Tends to collect in lower flow areas. The Streams do a good job movin' water, I tell ya!

Scott

barryhc · #**225** 01/21/2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by algaeguy
I am interested in your thoughts on the rubble as an efficient denitrification zone. I, too have thought about this, and I'm inclined to agree with you! I recall reading somewhere (Maybe in Sprung and Delbeek) about denitrification ocurring within the rock itself,

I agree that it may not be as efficient at denitrification as a DSB, but it may be a very viable alternative.
Scott

I doubt that the Rubble Bottom can out-perform a DSB, BUT, with some consideration of the "rubble" selection, it might come a lot closer than many people would think.

No amount of "depth" is going to affect denitrification significantly, because the amount of water around the rock will diffuse oxygen to levels that cannot support denitrification in the "interstital water". Interstital water is just the water between the rocks.

HOWEVER, If the rock selected, has a lot of surface area, like danieljames stated, that is a very big PLUS ! Also, if rock that is very porous, is selected, that will also increase the denitrification capability TREMENDOUSLY.

A REALLY NICE FEATURE, here, is that Hydrogen Sulfide production, and heavy metals "sinking" would be NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to occur ! ! ! ! !

Watta ya tinks of dem apples, heh ? ?

> Barry