Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?" - Page 8

miatawnt2b · #**176** 01/06/2006, 10:02 AM

I am very interested in an out of the box approach for my next tank (a 90 RR). I am torn between a few different approaches being plenum wasting, rubble bottom, and DSB in a bucket. I would like high flow in this new setup, but I like the plenum wasting option which poses a few problems with sandstorms and such. I like denitrating ablities of a DSB however, and was wondering if the rubble bottom has similar denitrating abilities? Would someone be able to comment?

Thanks,
-J

algaeguy · #**177** 01/06/2006, 10:49 AM

miatawnt2b,

I can only speak from my experience, but I have not had any detectible nitrate at all since my system was set up in March of last year...I am certain that soem denitrification takes place within the rocks in the system, and I suppose rubble has the same attributes. Good husbandry and a productive skimmer can't hurt, either!

barryhc- I, too was wondering about differnt "zones" in the same system. For example, a rublle zone over 2/3 of the tank, with a DSB/seagrass area over the rest...Has anyone tried a "mutlizone" approach?

Scott

barryhc · #**178** 01/06/2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by algaeguy

barryhc- I, too was wondering about differnt "zones" in the same system. For example, a rublle zone over 2/3 of the tank, with a DSB/seagrass area over the rest...Has anyone tried a "mutlizone" approach?

Scott

I haven't tried it yet, and like you I would love to hear from anyone who has. PaulB has been at this for quite a while, maybe he can help some.

I am trying to get ready for a 200 gal. setup, and this is one of "very many" possibilities that I'm looking into. Plenum Wasting might do well for a DSB zone. It is experimental, and I'm trying to develop it.

RUGF may be the hot ticket for the Rubble zone. I'm sure starting to like the idea of a Rubble zone in my tank.

Maybe a Jaw fish garden as well.

I think it would be more conducive to fairly large tanks, but maybe that won't turn out to be a restriction. I need to learn a lot more about the various "fauna" and where they "like to live".

Happy Reef Keeping! > barryhc

lillibirdy · #**179** 01/06/2006, 01:39 PM

Miatawnt2b, My tank is not just rubble, so maybe this don't count, but it has 2" of CC and in the middle a rubble pile on top of it, with a RUGF. It is very stable, in spite of having some supposed nitrate factories attached. (hob filter pads, and sponges on the RUGF intake) and I think we decided there must be denitrification going on in there somewhere cause I have had 0 nitrates for months now.

Paul B · #**180** 01/06/2006, 04:13 PM

Hello there Lillibirdy,
I also have no readable nitrates and have not had any in many years. My reef is mostly dolomite with some sand, rubble, broken glass, asphalt, shells and who knows what else. I run my reverse UG filter very slow with the theory that there must be many areas between the gravel and under the rocks where anerobic bacteria can thrive and reduce nitrate. My nitrate read about ten when I had a wet dry filter and I ran the UG filter much faster. My substrate is loaded with life that you can see with the naked eye. There are "bugs" running all over the place that are much larger than copepods. Spaghetti worms are in every nook as are tiny brittle stars, starfish and multi colored worms as well as an abundance of tube worms. This may have something to do with the fact that I collect amphipods by taking porous rocks from a muddy beach at low tide and swirling them in a pail of water, what ever I collect (except crabs) I dump in the tank with some of the mud. I have been doing this since 1972 and I believe it is one of the factors that has kept my tank healthy all of these years. Almost every tank I have ever seen was much too sterile.
I even did an experiment once with some mud from the Long Island Sound in NY. I filled a shallow pan with it and let it sit on the bottom of my tank for a few months. It didn't prove anything that I could tell but it didn't hurt either.
I also collect NY seaweed and plant it all over the tank, great stuff.
My RUGF theory is that it can reduce nitrate while having very little chance of producing any hydrogen sulfide. It also seems to have the ability of doing this forever, or at least 35 years with "almost" no maintenance. The UG filter plates were used for 25 years before I cleaned them and they were not that bad, most of the stuff in my gravel was tubeworms.
Have a great day.
Paul

lillibirdy · #**181** 01/06/2006, 04:52 PM

Yea Paul, I love your seaweed, and I wish my tank had more buggy life in it. I tried to introduce some once, by using some sand from anothers tank, and also introduced ick...which I assume is still in my tank since I did nothing but feed with garlic, (altho the fish show no signs now). I was hoping the rubble pile would be good haven for pods, but I can't see if I have them or not, too tiny. I have recently some wierd little white dots growing on the glass I initally thought were buggies of some sort, but they are very hard and need to be scraped off...(not corralline). Any idears? I think using sand might be the wrong approach, cause we are talking about different critters that thrive in DSB vs CC and rubble. Any ideas how to get my tank more critter life?
Thanks!

Paul B · #**182** 01/06/2006, 05:01 PM

I use a jewelers loupe to look for pods and other stuff. I also have a magnifying glass resting on the edge of the tank.
Lilly, Oregon is not exactly the salt water critter collecting capital of the world so it may be tough. I mean I could mail you a bunch of life from the sea but although my tank seems to be immune from any diseases or paracites, yours may not be. My tank has always been exposed to natural life and I really don't know what the consequences would be to dump a bunch of stuff in your beautifully running reef.
Paul

lillibirdy · #**183** 01/06/2006, 06:41 PM

Well, as kind as that is of you, your probably right, who knows what would happen in my tank that isn't used to the misc additions from time to time. Thanks tho!

Any idea what the hard white spots might be?

HybridFish · #**184** 01/06/2006, 06:44 PM

IMO using rubble is the same as CC.

lillibirdy · #**185** 01/06/2006, 07:52 PM

I dunno bout that, (rubble being the same as CC) what ways do you mean?? My CC is quite different than my rubble. The rice krispie size CC is settled all close together. The rubble is 1-2+ inch chunks with much larger air spaces in between.

HybridFish · #**186** 01/07/2006, 03:16 AM

Larger airspace means more detritus that will settle. You're right though, it's not the same as CC... It's worste than CC! Imagine the maintenance that will go with having to move rubble around just to get to the krud that accumilates at the bottom. At least w/ sand it stays mostly at the top w/ bare bottom, well there's really no where to hide. It's just my own common sense and no one elses. And so there's no misunderstandings, what I meant was a base w/ JUST rubble and nothing else like sand or CC to acompany it. I think reef central was created so we can learn from everyone elses mistakes and accomplishments. With that being said, let me me know how rubble only base media goes...

BOTR · #**187** 01/07/2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Larger airspace means more detritus that will settle.

Not true. This simply means that the flow of the tank also has the ability to remove it from the substrate. I have seen this in my own tank. Initialy the waste is heavy and falls directly into the rubble. After a time (hours) as the waste begins to break down it seperates and becomes a bit more boyant and gets pulled up and away by my WB's.

This is unlike a SB in that it is pretty much perfectly clean even after 5-6 months. With a SB the really fine detritus works it's way into the bed, never to be removed. Per my obs. My rubble bottom acts almost exactly like my BB, except I have quite a few more critters now.

This thread is better served by stories of personal exp., not conjecture. Lets not shoot any of this down untill you've really witnessed one that has been set-up to be effective.

algaeguy · #**188** 01/07/2006, 12:33 PM

I think that BOTR's observations are consistent with mine.

I have NOT noticed signifigant maintenance issues. Sure, there is some detritus, but it's pretty easily removed.

I'm not sure if everyone agrees, but it might be somewhat descriptive to say that a rubble bottom is very similar to a BB system, with the exception of the greater biodiversity in the rubble zone. In fact, it may or may not be "politically correct" to label it a version of a BB system. At least, that's my theory at this point. As I gain more experience with this, I'll be in a better postion to test this hypothesis.

However, I'm pretty convinced that this is a valid way to run a reef.

lillibirdy mentions a valid point- size of the rubble pieces. I would classify "rubble" for our purposes as 1"-2" and up to say 5"-6" pieces...That's my thinking anyways...Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Scott

lillibirdy · #**189** 01/07/2006, 12:49 PM

I agree on maintenance,....now whether it is my RUGF, the size of my rubble, water flow, whatever I just don't see a lot of detritus in either the CC OR the rubble zones. I'll take the turkey baster from time to time and squirt it down into the rubble, and you'd think I would get a swoosh of junk coming out, but I just don't. I have a two rocks that seems to shed more crap then rubble gives up (when squirted)! They are the man made rocks I bought from the store too, (big cool round opening) so not sure what the heck thats about...texture is grabbing detritus maybe. But my rubble seems OK.

BOTR · #**190** 01/07/2006, 12:59 PM

ttt

HybridFish · #**191** 01/07/2006, 10:54 PM

Do any of you have a good picture of your base media?

crrichey · #**192** 01/08/2006, 08:13 PM

I would also like to see more pics

I am also wanting my next system to have a rubble bottom, however, I would like to have about an inch of CC on top of a RUGF that is fed by the return from the sump. The plan is to layer this much like a plenum would be, with the RUGF, then an inch of CC, and the rubble layed across the bottom, with a few pieces of taller liverock sticking out. I would have to imagine that the CC would eventually be filled with bristle worms

Also, has anyone thought about adding several firefish to their rubble systems? Watching them pop in and out of the rubble would be awsome!

nickb · #**193** 01/08/2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChinChek787
Also, has anyone thought about adding several firefish to their rubble systems? Watching them pop in and out of the rubble would be awsome!

There's a currently not-too active thread about keeping fish in paris and groups (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=243359). One of the posters (Minh Nguyen) reported success in keeping a spawning pair of purple fire fish (nemateleotis decora) in a 450G tank. However, he and two other posters reported no success with groups of firefish: severe fighting and deaths. All of these experiences were in tanks over 200G in size.

crrichey · #**194** 01/08/2006, 08:53 PM

I have a question, was it mutual fighting, or fish chasing others? I would have to imagine that in a rubble system there would be plenty of places to hide if a fish was being picked on, but if they were just fighting...

nickb · #**195** 01/08/2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChinChek787
I have a question, was it mutual fighting, or fish chasing others? I would have to imagine that in a rubble system there would be plenty of places to hide if a fish was being picked on, but if they were just fighting...

You'd probably be best to read through the whole thread. The most direct comment is from Minh Nguyen:

Quote:

Firefish only live single or one pair. Anything more than one pair will end up with one chase out of the tank (to the carpet). Sometime one firefish will chase another out of the tank after a few months.

However, none of the tanks were rubble bottom as far as I can tell.

DesertBandits · #**196** 01/09/2006, 01:56 PM

Can some of you here tell me more about your rubble systems? Is everything else similar to any other tank (in terms of flow, skimming, lighting, etc). Are there any other parts of these systems are departures from average reefkeeping.

Whaledriver · #**197** 01/11/2006, 10:40 AM

This is a rubble bottom thread?! If you think CC is part of this idea you should re read this thread. The concept is closer to BB than a sand bottom. Rubble on the bottom with enough flow to keep silt from collecting on/under/around the rubble.

As far as other issues that are different? I dont think so

lillibirdy · #**198** 01/11/2006, 03:27 PM

Well in the 8 pages I read, I got the impression we where talking about ALL the ways rubble could be incorporated into a tank, and just lots of "out of the box thinking" about rubble in general. In some tanks CC is involved, others some dolomite, others sand areas...

I hope it don't turn into a bb/rubble type only thread. I have been enjoying all the ideas!

And yes, it is fun watching my one firefish darting in and out of the rubble, tho he is less skittish than most of the firefish stories I have heard about. I think this is cause he has so many hidy holes to jump into with rubble, and this makes him feel safer to be OUT.... can't speak to having more than one, that would be a personality thing with the fish I guess.

barryhc · #**199** 01/11/2006, 03:41 PM

Go Lillibirdy!!

Happy Reef Keeping!! > barryhc

Whaledriver · #**200** 01/11/2006, 05:03 PM

Thats fair enough to say. But someone who doesnt know enough is going to make a mess of things.
What if you put a few inches of CC with a few inches 4-6 inches of rubble in the bottom of a tank? Whith low or no flow to blow out the detritus you would end up with a mess that wouldnt work. Shades of gray are nice if you know whats going on in you tank.