What is your daily Temperature swing?

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by jarhed
But see finnegan, I've already demonstrated to you that I have stability in temps without a chiller. I'll assume that if my fan dies I'll have a huge swing just as if the chiller died. Other than that, I've found no other reason to buy a chiller. Oh, and as far as money, I'm not hurting there. If I want a chiller I can get one, but I just dont see the need. Nobody ever got rich wasting money.

Yeah, I'm with you on that--now we're debating whether temperature fluctuations per se are detrimental to the tank. Greenbean seems to think they aren't and I think they are. As I said before, if you can manage stable temps without a chiller, more power to you, you're smarter than I am

[greenbean36191]

Finneganswake, other than that's what others have told you, why do you believe that temperature fluctuations (within reason) are harmful?

[npaden]

I'm 100% with greenbean on this one.

My temps fluctuate 5 degrees or so in the summer from 80 to 85 and in the winter run 77 - 80.

As far as being a serious reefer, with almost 2,000 gallons going right now I think I might qualify.

I actually have a chiller sitting unused in my shed. I bought it because I wasn't sure I would be able to keep temps within reason with my greenhouse setup (the air temp in the greenhouse gets over 100 during the summer) but I was able to control my temps with a 20" box fan blowing on one of the tanks in the greenhouse. I still may set the chiller up if I get around to it to limit my evaporation that was getting up in the 25 gallons per day range but really for a system my size that is pretty low evaporation.

My personal feeling is that the chiller quitting disaster stories are mainly because the corals have lost their ability to adapt after years of being babied with very little fluctuation in temperatures. The chiller breaks and the temp goes up a few degrees and the corals can't cope. I had some issues come up with some unexpected high temps and my tank got to 90 degrees and I didn't lose a single coral. And I don't have a tank full of mushrooms either. I struggle more to keep my tank warm in the winter and had a few days where my tank got down to 76 and my corals appeared more distressed to me at 76 than they do at 86. Maybe it is because until last year the corals that I've had for the last 6 years haven't had to deal with temps that low. I've got almost 2,000 watts of heaters going in the winter though and that hurts to see the electric meter spinning.

I personally think it is smart to have decent temperature fluctuations so your corals can continue to adapt and I think a nice seasonal change is good as well.

I've done a little scuba diving in Fiji and Florida and the surface temps are the same to at least 100' because that's as deep as I dive.

Oh well, Just thought I would add my 2 cents.

Nathan

[Cluckr7]

Don't attack Greenbean like he's being stubborn.
1.) I don't see you changing your opinion, despite being presented data that real reefs have always had fluctuating temps.

2.) You haven't presented any reason for why a completely static system is better than one with a balance of fluctuations. All you've done is said repeatedly that you think this and that, with no ligitimate evidence or support.
Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, but based on my education, Greenbean (a marine bio student)'s opinion, and Dr. Ron's opinion, I feel that trying to keep your tank's temp to within a degree of fluctuation is not any more beneficial than a normal tank's temp swings.

3.) A completely static ecosystem doesn't exist. EVERYTHING in nature is CONSTANTLY fluctuating. You keep refering to stability, but your idea of stability is a totally static environment, which isn't reality. Everything around you that is "stable" is still dynamic. There are little pushes one way or the other and keeping the variable within a "stable" range. You are saying that corals need absolute or close to absolute stability to thrive and that you NEED heaters/chillers to stay in this range, and others are saying there is a much broader range.

A chiller or a heater are just forces that push a variable (temperature) back and forth within a stable range. But as long as someone's tank already has a force to do this for them, such as their ambient room temperature or the heat from their pumps, then they don't need the chiller/heater.

You view heaters and chillers as safety redudancies, but if your system is already "stable" without them, then they are liabilities too, and expensive ones at that.

[finneganswake]

Hey, come on--both sides are being stubborn. For the most part it seems that people who keep their temperatures stable are convinced it's good and people who don't are convinced they're also right.

One thing I'm constantly struck by is that most people who disagree with me seem to agree that keeping their 4 degree temp swing in the 80s is ok but my 2 degree temp swing in the high 70s is somehow static and bad for the tank. Please explain?

[jarhed]

I'm no biologist (at least outside of my own wild imagination), but I think I try to err on the side of stability with my tank. Not only because of what I've read on RC, but also because if I look at my tank and all the parameters are *perfect*, I want to keep everything as is, so I try to maintain temp, alk, Ca, etc...

Personally, I'm a little afraid to let the temp swing, but I also understand that my fear may be unfounded based on what happens in nature.

[Cluckr7]

I don't think its bad to keep a smaller fluctuation range. That's not static, that's just "more stable". There's still fluctuation, just less. I just think that people who don't want to or can't afford to get chillers to keep that smaller fluctuation are fine, since they're still well within their livestock's happy range :P But if you can afford chillers and controllers then use them. I'm a poor student =( so I can't.

[smleee]

79-81

No chiller, no heater..........boooyahh.

eee

[finneganswake]

Had a friend who runs an LFS put a lot of this into perspective. His store has (I'm guessing here) around 70 tanks or so, FW and SW. He keeps the temperature in the store at 80 degrees year round and doesn't run any heaters or chillers on any of the tanks EXCEPT his reef display tank. I asked him why, and he said, "If there's a major temperature fluctuation in my FO display tank, I might lose a few hundred dollars worth of fish. These are easy to replace. If there's a major fluctuation in my reef display tank, I might also lose some fish, which are easy to replace, but I could also lose three years of coral growth. It's not easy to replace show size colonies. My reef tank would never look the same."

[jarhed]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Had a friend who runs an LFS put a lot of this into perspective. His store has (I'm guessing here) around 70 tanks or so, FW and SW. He keeps the temperature in the store at 80 degrees year round and doesn't run any heaters or chillers on any of the tanks EXCEPT his reef display tank. I asked him why, and he said, "If there's a major temperature fluctuation in my FO display tank, I might lose a few hundred dollars worth of fish. These are easy to replace. If there's a major fluctuation in my reef display tank, I might also lose some fish, which are easy to replace, but I could also lose three years of coral growth. It's not easy to replace show size colonies. My reef tank would never look the same."

Well, lets drill down some.... What would cause the "major temp fluctuation" in his reef or FOWLR tanks? Someone turned off the fans? ELECTRICITY FAILURE??? If it's the electricity failure, his chillers are gone too.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by jarhed
Well, lets drill down some.... What would cause the "major temp fluctuation" in his reef or FOWLR tanks? Someone turned off the fans? ELECTRICITY FAILURE??? If it's the electricity failure, his chillers are gone too.

No, there is definitely a temperature fluctuation in his reef tank. He was the person who talked me into buying a chiller (not from him--he wasn't stocking them at the time), and the way he did it was to have me watch the temperature jump in his tank when his MHs came on. Maybe he has a lot of lighting, or maybe there isn't good ventilation, but the temperature went up FAST. REAL FAST. The rest of his tanks use flourescents, so there isn't as big of a heat issue--sharks don't need high lighting

About the only thing that causes fluctuations in the other tanks is the heat. Sometimes it gets so hot that it's very hard for him to keep the shop at 80 degrees what with people walking in and out of the shop all the time.

But I think his point about what would happen if there were a fluctuation in his other tanks is still valid. Sharks are easy to replace--the 18" candycane colony he has isn't.

[npaden]

Originally posted by finneganswake:
Sharks are easy to replace--the 18" candycane colony he has isn't.

I'm amazed at the way people think. It's okay for fish to die because they are easy to replace?

Needless to say I have a 4+ year old reef and I don't want to have to "replace" any of the fish or corals in it. I own a chiller but have never bothered to set it up because my tank does fine without it. I truly feel that keeping your tank at a very constant temperature does more harm than good because in the event of a disaster (power outage in the middle of summer or winter) the critters in your tank will have much less of a chance of adapting to the fluctuation than if they are used to dealing with some variation. I'm not preaching a 10 degree per day swing or anything, but the people that brag about keeping their tank + or - a 1/2 degree for years are in for a rude awakening if something happens and their tank does actually swing up or down in a disaster type situation. I personally have a generator to deal with power outages but I'm sure something is lurking around the corner somewhere that could cause fluctuations that the critters in my tank might have to deal with.

Oh well, that last line about being easy to replace just got me a little excited.

FWIW, Nathan

[Kinetic]

Mine is cool, 80.8* daytime, 80.4* nighttime, pretty consistent. This is in the sump next to the heater / skimmer, the main tank stays a consistent 79.8* - 80* F

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by npaden
I'm amazed at the way people think. It's okay for fish to die because they are easy to replace?

Needless to say I have a 4+ year old reef and I don't want to have to "replace" any of the fish or corals in it. I own a chiller but have never bothered to set it up because my tank does fine without it. I truly feel that keeping your tank at a very constant temperature does more harm than good because in the event of a disaster (power outage in the middle of summer or winter) the critters in your tank will have much less of a chance of adapting to the fluctuation than if they are used to dealing with some variation. I'm not preaching a 10 degree per day swing or anything, but the people that brag about keeping their tank + or - a 1/2 degree for years are in for a rude awakening if something happens and their tank does actually swing up or down in a disaster type situation. I personally have a generator to deal with power outages but I'm sure something is lurking around the corner somewhere that could cause fluctuations that the critters in my tank might have to deal with.

Oh well, that last line about being easy to replace just got me a little excited.

FWIW, Nathan

I've heard this line of reasoning before and have a really hard time following it. It seems analagous to saying that people should be exposed to a small amount of radiation each day so that when the nuclear war comes, their bodies will be ready for it

Ok, so maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but still, should we really be operating our tanks based on the idea that there is inevitably going to be a disaster? I hate to get political, but isn't that the line of reasoning behind the whole Iraq debacle I don't want the smoking gun to be a power outage in the middle of winter

Last but not least, my friend's point about fish being easy to replace doesn't mean he finds them disposable; it's just reality. If you put 10 volitans lionfish of the same age in a tank, good luck telling the difference between them--if all 10 die, you can put another 10 in the tank and nobody will notice. Contrast that to 10 well-aged corals of the same species; there can be radical differences in their growth forms based on the lighting, waterflow, positioning in the tank, etc. THAT is something that would make a big difference in the way your tank looks, and is therefor not as easy to replace.

[npaden]

Originally posted by finneganswake
I've heard this line of reasoning before and have a really hard time following it. It seems analagous to saying that people should be exposed to a small amount of radiation each day so that when the nuclear war comes, their bodies will be ready for it

I'm afraid exposing our fish and corals to normal temperature swings that they would see in the ocean doesn't quite correlate to exposing people to radiation.

I feel that taking them out of the ocean and forcing them to live in an environment that is constant with very little fluctuation has more potential to harm them than allowing your tank to fluctuate within reasonable parameters (Kind of like it does in the ocean!) I think this becomes even more important when you look at things like spawning events as seasonal swings in temperature could help trigger those types of events.

I took a poll with my fish and corals in my tanks and they said they prefer flucuation over constant temperatures.

FWIW, Nathan

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by npaden
I'm afraid exposing our fish and corals to normal temperature swings that they would see in the ocean doesn't quite correlate to exposing people to radiation.

I feel that taking them out of the ocean and forcing them to live in an environment that is constant with very little fluctuation has more potential to harm them than allowing your tank to fluctuate within reasonable parameters (Kind of like it does in the ocean!) I think this becomes even more important when you look at things like spawning events as seasonal swings in temperature could help trigger those types of events.

I took a poll with my fish and corals in my tanks and they said they prefer flucuation over constant temperatures.

FWIW, Nathan

I'm in total agreement with you regarding spawning events--if you check my earlier posts, I've mentioned that when I retire, I plan on having charts of temperature, hours of daylight, etc., of the areas my corals are from and try to keep my tank as close as possible to these parameters.

Until then...

I don't think that spawning is a flat out correlation with health. Look at one of the easiest ways to get a coral to reproduce outside of fragging--polyp bail-out. This happens when corals get severely stressed.

I look at it this way--where I grew up (Indiana) there were brutal winters and brutal summers. Anywhere from 30 degrees below to 100 degrees WITH high humidity (which means it feels like 120 in the shade). I can tell you for a fact that if you were to capture a wild animal (for instance, I had a friend with a pet squirrel and a friend with a pet wolf) and give it a constant food source and protection from the elements, it would be a lot more likely to survive.

[npaden]

Originally posted by finneganswake
I look at it this way--where I grew up (Indiana) there were brutal winters and brutal summers. Anywhere from 30 degrees below to 100 degrees WITH high humidity (which means it feels like 120 in the shade). I can tell you for a fact that if you were to capture a wild animal (for instance, I had a friend with a pet squirrel and a friend with a pet wolf) and give it a constant food source and protection from the elements, it would be a lot more likely to survive.

Personally I haven't heard of very many squirrels or wolves freezing to death recently.

Now take that wolf and put it inside in 75 degree weather for a few years. Then in the dead of winter, put it outside again at 30 below. Without a heavy winter coat, it has a good chance of dying. Heck, forget about 30 below, even at zero it might not make it. In the wild it would have adapted to the temperature swings and been fine in the cold and in the hot.

My corals are doing great in temperatures that they are regularly exposed to in the ocean. My tank temps rarely get over 85 but have gone over 85 and everything did fine. My temps last night got down to 76.6 and guess what? Everything did fine.

Then you hear of people who have a chiller go out and their temps go from 78 to 82 and they lose 1/2 the corals in their tank.

Anecdotally it sure sounds like they can lose their ability to adapt. And regardless, I'm trying to keep my tank within reasonable ocean parameters. That doesn't mean I'm going to ramp my tank up to 90 if there is a bleaching event in Fiji, but I'm not going to sweat it if my tank hits 85.

I still haven't seen you give one good reason for not allowing reasonable temperature fluctuations in your tank. I think it is actually beneficial, not detrimental.

Oh well, That's my opinion and I think it's a good one.

FWIW, Nathan

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by npaden
Personally I haven't heard of very many squirrels or wolves freezing to death recently.

Now take that wolf and put it inside in 75 degree weather for a few years. Then in the dead of winter, put it outside again at 30 below. Without a heavy winter coat, it has a good chance of dying. Heck, forget about 30 below, even at zero it might not make it. In the wild it would have adapted to the temperature swings and been fine in the cold and in the hot.

My corals are doing great in temperatures that they are regularly exposed to in the ocean. My tank temps rarely get over 85 but have gone over 85 and everything did fine. My temps last night got down to 76.6 and guess what? Everything did fine.

Then you hear of people who have a chiller go out and their temps go from 78 to 82 and they lose 1/2 the corals in their tank.

Anecdotally it sure sounds like they can lose their ability to adapt. And regardless, I'm trying to keep my tank within reasonable ocean parameters. That doesn't mean I'm going to ramp my tank up to 90 if there is a bleaching event in Fiji, but I'm not going to sweat it if my tank hits 85.

I still haven't seen you give one good reason for not allowing reasonable temperature fluctuations in your tank. I think it is actually beneficial, not detrimental.

Oh well, That's my opinion and I think it's a good one.

FWIW, Nathan

Well, the reason you may not have seen any frozen wolves may have something to do with the fact THAT YOU LIVE IN FREAKIN' TEXAS, YO! There actually aren't that many frozen squirrels, if any, because they hibernate, but I saw tons of frozen wolves walking through the woods in the winter. I just happened to mention that one of my friends kept a pet squirrel as an aside.

Seriously, though--who do you know that has actually had a tank die because their chiller went out and there was a fluctuation of a degree or two? I think you're entering urban legend territory here. I'd love to see one piece of scientific evidence that shows corals losing their ability to adapt in captivity. It's interesting because people in this trade seem to pay a lot more money for aquacultured corals given that THEY TEND TO LIVE compared to wild corals, which kind of conflicts with the whole losing the ability to adapt issue.

Now, on to people who have, in the real world, lost half of their tank because of a fluctuation that could have been prevented by a chiller, hmm, there have to be at least, I don't know, a thousand or so just on this site? Hell, I'm one of them. I don't have a chiller on my 10g, and when the summer hit one day and the office A/C couldn't keep up, the temp went from it's normal 78 to 82 degrees all the way up to 88 degrees. I lost every fish and half of my corals. Apparently, their ability to adapt was not enhanced by my lack of stability.

[Kinetic]

It's similar to the "flu shot" sort of deal.

you get a small dose of the flu shot to strengthen your immune system... though it's not easily comparable to temperature swings

[npaden]

I actually grew up in Northeast Montana so if you want to compare cold stories I'm sure I have you beat.

As far as finding a specific story where a 2 or 3 degree temperature rise caused bleaching or death, I couldn't find one but could swear I've heard a few of those type stories. I did find several posts where people lost their tanks due to fuses blowing on chillers and even one where the chiller stuck on and chilled the tank to death.

I'm not saying that you can make corals immune to an 88 degree event (although I've had my tank get that high with no ill effects). I think low oxygen levels in heavily stocked tanks may have as much to do with losses during high temp events as the actual temperature. My system sends me an alarm if my temp gets below 77 or if it gets above 86. I'm happy within those parameters. If it gets above or below them I will try to do something about it. I do have a dozen or so fans that kick in at 82 to cool the tank and about 2,000 watts of heaters that kick in at 80 to heat the tank. Whether you control the temp with a chiller or fans is up to you, I find fans perfectly effective and feel that my tank speaks for itself. Click on the little red house for pics if you want.

FWIW, Nathan

[reefclown]

ooh, some mutterings of wisdom

[QUOTE]You know something I never see mentioned - temperature can be your friend and is a very useful tool.
Keep in mind that higher temps = higher metabolisms and lower temps = lower metabolisms.
Examples:
Sudden ammonia, nitrite, nitrate spike for no known reason. Lower temp and buy yourself some time to figure it out.
Suspected parasite, viral, fungal etc again lower temp slow the problem down until you figure it out, have time to get proper meds etc.
Need to temporarily hold more fish/critters than normal, again lower temp slower metabolisms.
Want to hurry up a parasites life cycle because proper meds are in place. Raise temp.

Well you get the idea.QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Just as long as you realize, temperature is the driving force with any closed system.

The higher the temp, the faster the metabolisms of everything in the system (to a degree). That will mean more food is needed, more waste is produced and will need to be processed, Ca and Alk and any traces will need to be replaced more often, any disease and parasite will also be speeded up etc etc.QUOTE]

and who do you think this wise man may be

It's all about the ability to control and manage, if you can't C&M the environment of your charges then action is needed. Don't buy another specimen, put some control in place.

The ability to adapt your system to stimulate or regulate to a perceived standard is secondary, the ability to recognise circumstance and control accordingly should be the primary goal.

If you can't do either or dont have masochist tendencies then why keep a reef?


Been a long day, apologies for the vent, I feel a whole lot better

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by npaden
I actually grew up in Northeast Montana so if you want to compare cold stories I'm sure I have you beat.

As far as finding a specific story where a 2 or 3 degree temperature rise caused bleaching or death, I couldn't find one but could swear I've heard a few of those type stories. I did find several posts where people lost their tanks due to fuses blowing on chillers and even one where the chiller stuck on and chilled the tank to death.

I'm not saying that you can make corals immune to an 88 degree event (although I've had my tank get that high with no ill effects). I think low oxygen levels in heavily stocked tanks may have as much to do with losses during high temp events as the actual temperature. My system sends me an alarm if my temp gets below 77 or if it gets above 86. I'm happy within those parameters. If it gets above or below them I will try to do something about it. I do have a dozen or so fans that kick in at 82 to cool the tank and about 2,000 watts of heaters that kick in at 80 to heat the tank. Whether you control the temp with a chiller or fans is up to you, I find fans perfectly effective and feel that my tank speaks for itself. Click on the little red house for pics if you want.

FWIW, Nathan

Yeah, your tank looks like it's having fun Nice job!

Now, back to the arguing On the people that had blown fuses and there were problems, I'm going to have to assume that they were in a situation like mine, which is that without the chiller, there will be a MAJOR temperature swing--my MH is only about 4 inches above the water, so the temp will skyrocket without the chiller. Now if you're talking about people who had a blown fuse and the temp only raised 4 degrees and their tank imploded, then I'd be willing to say that there might be something to the idea of corals losing the ability to adapt.

[samsfishnchips]

well so the arguement continues

Half of Coral Reefs Could Be Destroyed

Coral bleaching is caused by increased surface temperatures in the high seas and higher levels of sunlight caused by climate change. As temperatures rise, the algae on which corals depend for food and color die out, causing the coral to whiten, or "bleach."

Prolonged bleaching conditions over ten weeks can eventually lead to the death of the coral.

so they can adapt?

npaden,

and those cases of chiller failure, are not about a few degrees, is about cases where the temp rose to 90-100's, one of my friends lost his tank because of this, now he sees having a back up chiller as pocket change...

some people like yourself can have the tank without a chiller, and that's fine, but some don't have that privilege

I care about my corals and my fish which for me are not replaceable, and so I try to give them the best care as possible

the most stable parameters as possible

that's just my opinion which I think is a valid one too

sam

[greenbean36191]

and those cases of chiller failure, are not about a few degrees, is about cases where the temp rose to 90-100's

EXACTLY! Losing the corals when your chiller goes out is because of the extreme temperature, not because of the temp fluctuation. If you go outside of an animal's tolerance it's going to die no matter how quickly or slowly it happens. If your tank's oxygen demands outstrip supply then the animals are going to bite it no matter how slowly the change happens.

Once again, I think you would be hard pressed to find any evidence that fluctuations are harmful other than what your brother's wife's third-cousin said.

[samsfishnchips]

lol,

that last post wasn't direct at you greenbean36191

it was for npaden, comment that a system with a chiller is more vulnerable, and thus a small change of a few degrees would kill the tank if the chiller ever failed

I though your opinion was set and my too

I like stability and you don't no point in debating that, right?

good day,

sam