Stoooooopid Overflow

coops2k · #1 08/31/2005, 01:47 PM

My overflow is giving me a headache.

Heres a picture of it.....

its ok one minute and then the next the overflow has beaten the return pump and the overflow goes noisy again.

Any idea's, there is no hole in the endcap cause if i put a hole in the cap it goes noisy again...blowing air and water.

Thanks for any help

jorgemonteon · #2 08/31/2005, 01:59 PM

Hi,

Just to clarify...are you saying that you're getting more flow going into your sump from your overflow than your return pump is actually pumping back into the display?

If this in indeed the case, it may be that your return pump is under-rated and is not supplying enough water to the overflow to establish a reasonable water level in the rear overflow box.

Also, is there a reason why the return plumbing has been looped up and then back down to the sump? I would imagine that this setup would cause a pulsing flow to the sump, rather than a steady flow to the sump.

coops2k · #3 08/31/2005, 02:12 PM

Looped back to get rid of noise (eg. gurguling, flushing noise) Standpipe.

Pump is rated higher than the overflow.

Seems to keep up for a minute and then the level drops in the overflow and it seems the pump is losing the battle between them both. Unless there is another way to stop the noise.

Travis L. Stevens · #4 08/31/2005, 02:16 PM

If that is the case, why not add a ballvalve on the drain pipe so you can adjust how much flow is going through there.

jorgemonteon · #5 08/31/2005, 02:49 PM

A few more questions:

what diameter plumbing do you have for both the return and overflow plumbing? What kind of return pump are you using and what is it rated at? Do you have any 90 degree or 45 degree fittings on the return line going back to the tank?

I think one the problems may be the return plumbing. That is, the water has to be pushed up and over the and down the sump, so you may be getting a sudden burst of flow to the sump so the return pump may not be able to keep up.

Take a look at your sump water level and determine if the level stays constant or fluctuates. If it doesn't remain constant and your getting sudden gushes of flow from the overflow, you're probably experiencing pulses of water from the way the plumbing is setup, and in essence you've inadvertantly created a "wave maker" for you sump...just an idea.

areze · #6 08/31/2005, 02:59 PM

so you want the box to stay partially full and not drain all the way at any given time?

thatd be some crazy balance, and the slightest change in anything would probably throw it off again. I think the overflow is supposed to outpace the return pump. just that its sposed to be by as little as possible.

Johnnyfishkiller · #7 08/31/2005, 03:00 PM

You must have air entering the drain pipe to the sump. Without it, the drian will "flush" just like your toilet. In fact, your plumbing is exactly how the plumbing cast into the porcelain in your toilet looks.

Put a standpipe in the outside box of your overflow or you risk losing siphon on your overflow if power goes out. Get rid of the loop in the drain pipe. Put a cap on the standpipe with a hole in it, and put a small tube into the hole. Adjust the length of the tube and the depth into the standpipe until the noise and flushing is gone. You will have to experiment with the size of the tube as well.

Johnnyfishkiller · #8 08/31/2005, 03:03 PM

Just re-read my post. Not quite correct. You don't want to cap the standpipe unless you have a durso or stockman. If you just have a standpipe, put the tube in without a cap.

coops2k · #9 08/31/2005, 03:22 PM

OK, Overflow box plumbing is 32mm plastic which then reduces down to a 1" pvc pipe, the return is 1"pvc.

The overflow is rated at approx. 2000 l/h and the pump is rated at 2300l/h.

coops2k · #10 08/31/2005, 03:24 PM

Oh yeah...forgot......after the bends in the picture it is a straight drop to the sump, pvc pipe is submerged in the water as well.
Did try a stockman standpipe in the overflow box its self...but it was just too noisy.

jorgemonteon · #11 08/31/2005, 03:29 PM

Hi areze,

You're correct...I think the way it's setup, the exterior box stays partially full, simply due to the plumbing arrangment and may even act as a "wavemaker", depending on the water level in the exterior overflow box...obviously you probably don't want this unless you're specifically looking to pulse water to the sump.

And agree with Durso standpipe idea...this would probably eliminate the gurgling noise for good. You can either bulid an internal overflow or external standpipe: http://www.midwestcustomaquariums.co...standpipe.html
http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/stand...ug_closeup.htm

Also, if the return plumbing ID is too small, this may also affect return flow.

coops2k · #12 08/31/2005, 03:37 PM

I will put another pic up in a min......so you can see the pipes in full......cant see them all in the previous picture. I thought i built a standpipe.

Johnnyfishkiller · #13 08/31/2005, 03:37 PM

You still need to get that loop out of there and get a standpipe of some sort in the overflow.

The point of having an overflow box is to maintain a level of water in the outside box when the power goes out. If you don't, it will break the siphon of the overflow.

jorgemonteon · #14 08/31/2005, 03:39 PM

ahhh...well I think part of the answer is in the pump rating. the pump rating at 2300L/hr is based on 0ft of head. If you're having to pump up to a height of ~4ft of head pressure or so, you're rating would be less than 2300l/hr and may be pumping at less than 2000L/hr back into the tank. If so, you will probably have to install a ball valve in the return line (as stated by Travis) or get a higher rated pump. I would probably consider a higher rated pump with a ball valve on the return line, instead; This is much easier to control than adjusting the retun-line ball valve. If the ball valve isn't adjusted just right, you can overflow your tank and cause a nice flood!

Also, are you noticing a sudden flush of water to the sump?

coops2k · #15 08/31/2005, 03:44 PM

coops2k · #16 08/31/2005, 03:46 PM

Not really sudden....overflowbox fills up nicley....all runs sommthly and quietly for about 5mins and then the level starts to drop...but this takes about 2-4 mins for the overflowbox to be come empty. And then it start gurgling and the pump ant win at this point.

schristi69 · #17 08/31/2005, 03:58 PM

I expect what is happening is you have water flow into your overflow. It fills your J bend until the level in the pipe reaches the last elbow. It then flows down into your sump. The siphon action pulls the rest of the water from the overflow tank until the level is below the top of the pipe. The process then repeats. Get rid of that entire plumbing rig, build a simple Durso return. That should even out your flow and quiet things down. Water seeks a level and your inflow piping to your overflow box does not match your outflow.

coops2k · #18 08/31/2005, 04:05 PM

I'll go check what i can actually fit in to the overflow box....its pretty tight for space and i dont think i will be able to fit a durso type standpipe in there. But i will check

Johnnyfishkiller · #19 08/31/2005, 04:09 PM

You'd be surprised how quiet a simple standpipe with a small diameter tube stuck in it can be.

nepuck · #20 08/31/2005, 04:13 PM

Ditch what you have (wrought w/ problems). For the time and energy you'll spend trying to tune a home made over the back deal you can buy a ready made (pre-tuned) piece that will work.

jorgemonteon · #21 08/31/2005, 04:27 PM

Ok, this image will probably look fuzzy, but I think you will get the general idea on the external Durso standpipe design. It will fit nicely on the back of the tank and can be tuned easily.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...sooverflow.jpg

coops2k · #22 08/31/2005, 05:04 PM

Looks good Jorgemonteon......but will have to wait till 2morrow to try it. Sob sob. Abit late now (11pm) here.

Will post 2morrow to let yuou know how i got on. Can't wait to get this wokring so i can get my rock and sand.

Cheers fellas

Johnnyfishkiller · #23 09/01/2005, 04:33 PM

jorgemonteon, can you explain your drawing to me? How does the overflow box maintain prime when the power goes out? The standpipe that you show is not a durso. Look at the picture from the link to Richard Durso's web site above (the rl180reef one) the differences are obvious and important.

jay24k · #24 09/01/2005, 04:39 PM

It's normal. Make a mini durso or use a sponge but keep it cleaned regularly. It's just that you are draining faster. It's annoying but a durso will fix it. Just make a mini one or like the one in the diagram.

jorgemonteon · #25 09/01/2005, 04:47 PM

Johnny, you're right...i forgot to add a baffle in the exterior overflow box to maintain a prime on the U-tube...doh!!! I drew it out on Paint rather quickly, sorry. I'll Post a new drawing showing what I mean.

And yes, to be complete accurate, it's not a Durso, per se, but it will eliminate the noise. How do I know, you ask? This was the exact DIY box that I used for two years--without having any problems.

thanks again Johnny...good catch :-)