MAJOR Disaster - I'm getting discouraged...

[dnjan]

I read the suggestion that pipe friction could be contributing to the heat problem, and also wondered "where is this guy coming from?". The heating in the pipe, from friction, would be negligable. However, a restricted return pipe could cause a submerged pump to put out quite a bit more heat. Power consumption of the impeller-type pumps that most of us use goes up quite dramatically as the head the pump must work against increases. That power must be going someplace! Since it isn't going into water flow (due to partial restriction), it goes into heat.

Having followed this thread, I too was wondering where the heat was coming from. Especially since the tank was able to maintain temperature overnight with no lights or heaters on. Most tanks that size would need 200-400watts of heater to keep the tank temperature up to 80F overnight in a cold climate. This tank doesn't. Something else must be providing heat overnight, and the only thing running are the pumps.

(my) Conclusion: First, determine if there is a restriction in your plumbing which is causing one (or both) of your pumps to give off too much heat. If you have no restriction, one (or both) of your pumps may be dieing. So instead of spending money on upgrading the hood and lights, first buy replacement pumps (preferable not RIO's). A SEN700 will provide better flow than the RIO2500, and will cost about $70-$80US. That is plenty of flow for your skimmer, and also plenty flow (as a return pump) until you decide to upgrade to keep SPS corals.

[VDHD]

Don, the MAG 1800 is brand new.. The RIO is just for the skimmer - but that's not a bad suggestion. Before I go out and buy another pump should I try to shut the RIO off overnight for fun?

[dnjan]

If you weren't using the skimmer to try to get rid of any crud left from the dying coral, I would say yes. However ...

... and you will probably want to be getting a replacement for the RIO anyway. Too many stories about catastrophic RIO failures.

Since you had the higher tank temps before you bought the MAG (when the tank was in your office), I would guess that it is the RIO that is putting out the heat. (It has to be coming from somewhere!)

[VDHD]

Okay I threw another bag of ice in a ziplock this morning to cool it down a bit more... The temp is now sitting at 79.9. It seems idle for the moment.

I'm sorry, but I still don't know the real name of this coral. It has a hard skeleton with beautiful bubbles that come out of its arms. It's known as a Frogspawn. In any case, this morning it started to open up more from TWO of the arms - but the other three seem empty.. Like dead almost. Will they grow back do you think? There was residue (LOTS) coming out from each of the "dead" arms yesterday before the water change. There were lots of strands floating through the water - but now everything is cleaned up.

Tell me, do these types of Corals regenerate? I am going to pickup some reef books. Any links to make it easier at Chapters.ca or Amazon.com?

BTW - Plasma, I was told that the more turnover in my water the better. The fact is, I have some pretty crazy plumbing, and I think a Mag Drive 1800 cycles the water nicely. I get awesome flow, and the water is always crystal clear.

Thanks again.

[Little Reefer Boy]

VDHD,

You still haven't told us what your room temperature usually is. We just want to know so we can rule that out as contributing to your temp problems.

The ambient room temperature plays a big factor in tank temperature. If you like it warm and toasty during the winter, your tank will feel it too.

[SteveMH]

I remember seeing a temp drop when I switched out my Rio return for a Mag return. There's no doubt at least a degree or two is coming from the Rio. Is the glass top completely gone from the main tank now? I'm tellin' ya, it's a hot plate. Even after the lights go out that glass holds heat for a while longer and keeps heat trapped below it.

Room temp is a great point too. I guess I'm a cold blooded person because I like my place pretty warm during the winter months. I found out my room temp had a BIG effect on my tank temp.

[cfh3989]

I agree that the comment from Plasma was a little excessive (but funny). However, as an ME I can tell you with great confidence that there is no way in hell that friction in the pipes would produce such heat. However, I could see the possibility of overheating a pump by applying too much backpressure.
I'm not trying to insult here, only stating the truth. Yes, any fluid experiences a slight temperature rise due to friction, but nothing like this. Something is really wacky here. No heater for a 90 gallon tank when its 10 outside? Ready to invest in MH hood, but not $20 for a heater?
Assuming an inside temp of 72F, to maintain a 90 gallon aquarium at 89,86 requires a great deal of energy. I agree that the glass will make a big difference but still-86 at night!. Even if the temperature can be maintained at 80-82, I would still want to know the root cause of the problem. Something is causing this tank to be significantly above ambient temperature even at night. It's not magic, something is producing massive amounts of heat.
Given what we know, It seems as though it is not the lights. If it were, I would think that the tank (even at 90 gal), would drop more than 3 deg F at night. I am very curious after reading this thread to see what the outcome is.
By the way, if this is resolved, I would get a heater just for stability purposes. Set the heater at the lowest temperature you can achieve just for piece of mind that leaving a window open or something will not lead to a sudden decrease.
I also agree strongly with everyone, check that darn thermometer. Try using an ice bath (mostly ice with a bit of water) and make sure the thing reads 32F. You could check with boiling water, but that is probably beyond the reach of the thermometer. A wacky solution seems the only logical conclusion.
Good Luck

[VDHD]

Steve - Glass top is still there, but elevated in the back for now until I can get someone to build me a hood.. I really don't have enough time to build a hood - though I do enjoy sitting and watching my tank. I need a decent woodworker to help me on this one.

[cfh3989]

sorry, didn't mean to copy what dnjan said, I just took too long to write and we were thinking the same thing and posted at the same time

[SteveMH]

Having the top partially open isn't going to do it, it's still going to hold heat as long it's under the lights. Yank the glass top completely and block the lights up on 2x4's or whatever you have laying around to put a few inches between them and the water surface. The tank will look like crud for awhile, until you can get a canopy built. But you'll see a drop in temp. Wish I was in your area, we'd have a canopy built for ya by this evening.

[SawCJack00]

I think your heater is broken...

Just kidding I couldn't resist. Good luck with a solution. Sounds like you're on the right track. Is there a local reef club you could join? If so, there's usually some good DYIers that can help you build a canopy at a low cost.

[Clyde]

word of advice, get a heater, nothing kills more than a temp swing,



again, another item I noticed you have your PC lights over your glass by 1 inch, thats very close to the water, this COULD have been contributing to your heating of the tank, with the glass - air between water and glass is a great insulator, and will heat up fast.

after you get the glass out, I bet we ll see a major swing during day and night.

Originally posted by VDHD
For those of you who insist that it might be a malfunctioning heater - I will repeat myself;

I DO NOT have a Heater. I haven't had a heater for two years! I used to have two EHEIM (I believe) Heaters that I used in my fresh salt water mix. I've never had a reason to use a heater in this tank.

[Wolverine]

Even with the lights that close to the water it shouldn't get THAT hot. Our 2X96w PCs are closer than that, and our tank has never gotten that hot, even when we did have the glass top still on.

I agree with SawCJack, the heater is probably on the fritz

Dave

[johncooley]

Hey i just had the same temp problem but not that high mine got almost to 90 after adding my new mh lights but after a few suggestions from a few of these kind people on here got to screwing around with the tank and the glass lid was holding all the heat in even before i got the mh lights i had the same problem but ive got it handled now hope it works out for you.i had no casualtys sorry
john cooley

[SteveMH]

The glass top is just the biggest contributor. Factor in two fairly large submersible pumps (one being a Rio), no fan, and possibly room temp.

[ron101]

Glass top. Not only does it create an insulation of still air but does it not also add more heat by refracting the light - like sitting behind a window on a sunny day?

If you are concerned about exposing your lighting to the water could you not install a lens on the fixture and run some fans thus sealing off the fixture instead of your tank?

[cfh3989]

There are still two key parts of this puzzle that we have not heard

What it the room temperature?
Has the thermometer been somehow verified?

We could all go on for days with suggestions, but the answer could very well lie in either of those questions.

[Plasma]

OK, I was a jerk. But I'm sober now...or close. Anyway, sorry to have offended but friction in PVC and twists and turns in aquarium pipes? Gimme a break kid, this thing is a fish tank - not a nuclear reactor. Professional competition, not really. But hey, grow a thicker skin and get used to backing up technical statements. Its what we (and you) do for a living. If the pump gets hot enough to raise the temp on a 90 gal tank it would likely burn out prior to raising it any farther.

OK...maybe I'm not as sober as I thought. This is my 3-4 beer argumentative stage....sorry again.

We are making this waaaaay too complicated. VDHD, please take the thermocouple, i.e. the metal end on the thermometer you are using and stick it in ice water..it should read 0.0C. Then stick it in boiling water...it should read 100C. If it doesn't get a new thermometer.

"Argon" Plasma

[SteveMH]

I don't get the whole thermometer thing. I would say it's fairly accurate if the corals are melting away.

[cfh3989]

The whole thermometer thing is that we don't know if temperature is the only problem. We haven't even begun to talk about other water conditions. With such an unusual situation, the first thing I would do is to somehow verify the thermometer reading. These things do go bad. Plasma is right. Just as he and I said, make an icewater bath to verify @ 32. Boiling water will work as well @ 212, but not if it is beyond the range of the thermometer. If he is using the same thermometer as me (which I suspect from his description), it's the lifeguard digital temp alert, which has a range of -58 to 158 F. This would allow for at least a one point calibration at 32. As of yet, I have heard of nothing to verify this thing is accurate. Temperature may not be the problem. I can not understand how one maintains such a large investment as a reef aquarium without a heater. If my tank were at stake, I would spend the $5 ($7.50 Can) on a chaep thermometer to verify that the thing is not grossly off.
If the thing is correct than I cannot understand what the problem is. You don't just have a temperature this far above ambient with no obvious input. To keep water that warm, something would be obviously giving off heat. And though temperature may be the reason the coral is melting away, there are several other factors that we haven't even begun to touch on. I'm just saying, lets make sure that the tank is really as hot as he thinks it is.

[SteveMH]

The lifeguard digital temp alert does vary some. I had one go bad (dropped it in the sump, oops) and the new replacement gave a three degree difference. No where near as extreme like this case is, but at least one of the thermometers wasn't giving an accurate reading. Guess it would be wise to check it out.

[Plasma]

cfh3989,

Right on. Calibrate the thermometer, please. This tank should not be that hot (in freakin' Canada.....in freakin' winter?!). Lets elminate the obvious. Guys in Rochester, NY know how hot the house has to be, in winter, to get a tank that toasty. Dozens of folks have pumps, and MH's, and PC's, and grandmas that jack up the furnace...we don't have tanks that get to 90F.

Until we see a picture we don't know if the corals are "melting"...what we know is we have fella here who bought some unnamed animals with a really hot tank. Lets not give too much credit. The water could be poisned and the corals killed. "Melting" might be a misdiagnosis with very little data to back it up.

"Nitrogen" Plasma

[honeybee]

VDHD

I am using power compact retofit kit that is not water proof. I modified the kit to accept an inexpenside fan and covered the lights with a sheet of plastic. There is no tank cover to trap heat and I have no fans that blow on the water. The lights are three inches above the tank top and on 12 hours a day. I have 260 w on a 55 gal. The house temp is 70oF and the tank temp is 78oF. I need heaters to keep the tank temp stable.


Frank

[Auberon]

VDHD writes, “The temp is around 86 at night, 89 during the day - I cannot think of any good way to lower it.�

VDHD writes, “Anyways, I have a digital temperature guage - one that measures the room temp and the water temp (you flip a switch). It has one of those probes that sits in the water.. It's quite accurate. The room is, apparently, 11 degrees lower according to this device. I lowered the room temperature today by a couple of degrees.�

cfh3989 writes, “There are still two key parts of this puzzle that we have not heard
What it the room temperature?�

It’s right in front of your nose

[Little Reefer Boy]

Auberon,

We know what he said the digital thermometer says. What we're asking him is to get another thermometer to double check the tank and room temperature.

There is no way I would ever trust any thermometer without a backup to verify. It is very common for the digital thermometers with the long corded probe to be off. That's all we're asking.