Aquarium Research - I need you and your $$ again...

[rshimek]

Hi Folks,

I need some volunteers who are willing to spend $150.

As many of you know I have been working for a number of years at determining the "materials" flow through an aquarium. This started 2 years ago with my Food and Additives Study to determine what was in what we added to our tanks.

I am presently publishing the results of my Tank Water Study (www.reefkeeping.com), on what is in our tanks.

The next logical step is to publish about what we export from our tanks.

I need volunteers for that next part of the project. I hope to send the materials off for analysis in about a month so if you are interested I need you to contact me soon. What I will need from you will be a sample of what you export - algae, skimmate, Xenia. For things like skimmate, it will have to be collected for a while to get enough for the sample, so we will have to start soon.

Each participant would contribute a sample of one type of export material.

The lab will be sending me the sample collection jars at the end of the week, and I will, hopefully, be sending them out to participants soon after that.

While some of the cost of the analysis has been met by the excess from a generous grant for my preceding study, I will still need participants to contribute a portion of the costs. The costs are dependent on the number of samples (the costs per sample drop significantly if we have more than 15 samples).

If you are interested in participating please contact me at rshimek@imt.net.

I am planning on presenting these results at the MACNA in Dallas, and likely they will be published in Reefkeeping Magazine.

[slimytadpole]

Since the things we export from our systems are largely bio-degradable, will storing these items until the sample is large enough change the properties of the sample? Would day old skimmate be different from 2-week-old-skimmate?

[jayo]

wouldn't it make more sense for each participant to give a sample that consists of everything they export from their system, proportional to how much volume of each they export, to give the overall picture of what they remove from their system? I would think that export systems 'compete' with each other enough to make this a very difficult analysis given only one sample.

Say that someone exports xenia and skimmate. Maybe the xenia sucks up all of yucky element A (y_A) before the skimmer can get to it. If you look only at the skimmate sample you might conclude that skimming can't remove y_A, which might not be true.

At the very least I'd think you'd want to know what _all_ of the export mechanisms used on the particular tank that the sample came from are.

does this make sense?

jayo

[rshimek]

Originally posted by jayo

Hi,

wouldn't it make more sense for each participant to give a sample that consists of everything they export from their system, proportional to how much volume of each they export, to give the overall picture of what they remove from their system?

Yes and no....

Each component of the that composite sample would be have to be analyzed separately at $150-$200 a pop. So a good composite sample (with 5 or more components) could cost upwards of $750. This is the cheap way---- trying to analyize enough "composite" samples to do any sort of stats on could cost an aggregate upwards of $15,000.

What I am trying to do is build a "data base" of the components, and then if somebody wanted to know what was in their "composite export sample" they could take the values from a table, multiply by the percentage they use and come up with the total. The result would not be precise, but would likely be within the ballpark. Presently we can't even get within the county that the ball park is in....

Say that someone exports xenia and skimmate. Maybe the xenia sucks up all of yucky element A (y_A) before the skimmer can get to it. If you look only at the skimmate sample you might conclude that skimming can't remove y_A, which might not be true.

Possibly, that is why I am hoping to get as many people as possible participating. This would eliminate some of these variations.

At the very least I'd think you'd want to know what _all_ of the export mechanisms used on the particular tank that the sample came from are.

does this make sense?

No, you simply can't know them all. The method I am proposing is a simple reductionist approach, and it is common in, say the effluent from a polluter. One looks at all the components separately and then comes up with a "laundry list" of what contains what, and the aquarist can go from there.

In all studies of this nature, one must assume that one can construct an "average" reef tank, and that each individual aquarist can see where there system fits in it.

[rshimek]

Originally posted by slimytadpole

Hi

Since the things we export from our systems are largely bio-degradable, will storing these items until the sample is large enough change the properties of the sample? Would day old skimmate be different from 2-week-old-skimmate?

The samples will be collected by the aquarist and freeze-dried or frozen. Hopefully they can be shipped frozen, and I can refreeze them here and ship them off to the lab.

Yes, things like the amount of protein, etc. will change - and their might be some loss of organics. The values recorded for these materials will have to be interpreted in that light. I hope to keep those changes minimized, though, through careful handling. The metals and non-volatile materials will not be altered.

[Hawkdl2]

Ron,

Can you tell us what is your hypothesis?

As a subsequent experiment, you might consider a directed analysis of the uptake of specific organics and/or inorganic (e.g. phosphate, Calcium and nitrate, Iodine, etc.) by the various export mechanisms, in a dynamic setting and in response to controlled fluctuations of a particular compound. For example, consider asking the question: in which export system(s) do increases in phosphate concentration most rapidly or significantly result in changes in short term uptake.

I suspect that looking at static samples of the various export system without knowledge of the recent loads in the host tank, that it will be difficult to determined whether measurements reflect long term accumulation or uptake in response to fluctuations in the dynamic load in a tank. I'm not sure that measuring static concentrations of, say, magnesium, in the various export systems would necessarily lead to a supportable conclusion about which is the most significant user of magnesium or which export system an aquarist would most benefit from.


Larry

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Hawkdl2

Hi

Can you tell us what is your hypothesis?

No. At this point we don't have enough data about what is being export or by what means. In other words, we simply can't ask a cogent question.

This study, as the Tank Water Study before it, is designed to give us a baseline series of data.

As a subsequent experiment, you might consider a directed analysis of the uptake of specific organics and/or inorganic (e.g. phosphate, Calcium and nitrate, Iodine, etc.) by the various export mechanisms, in a dynamic setting and in response to controlled fluctuations of a particular compound. For example, consider asking the question: in which export system(s) do increases in phosphate concentration most rapidly or significantly result in changes in short term uptake.

This is a nice question. And well beyond both my monetary needs to examine.

What I am proposing is to answer a simple question.

"What is being exported from our tanks and by what method?"

I suspect that looking at static samples of the various export system without knowledge of the recent loads in the host tank, that it will be difficult to determined whether measurements reflect long term accumulation or uptake in response to fluctuations in the dynamic load in a tank.

Again, those questions are for the future.

I'm not sure that measuring static concentrations of, say, magnesium, in the various export systems would necessarily lead to a supportable conclusion about which is the most significant user of magnesium or which export system an aquarist would most benefit from.

Again, those questions are for the future.

Right now, we don't have any idea about what is being exported from our tanks in any meaningful detail. This is simply a study see what, if anything is coming out of skimmer's effluent, or algal export, or ....

As the samples willl be analyzed in manner consistent with the tank water study and the food and additive study before that, we will have an idea of what we are adding to our tanks, what is likely to be in the water of an average tank, and what is coming out of a tank.

From that you can design experiments to test various hypotheses, but for the moment we are not there yet.

[jayo]

I think you might also want as much data as possible about the tanks that the samples are coming out of.

It would be really neat, for example, if you could show that algae growing in a tank with high phosphate in the water has a higher phosphate level in it than algae growing in a low-phosphate tank (showing that the algae is flexible in how much phosphate it needs to grow).

I would bet that most export mechanisms "compete" with each other and have flexible nutrient uptakes. The more you know about the tanks the more likely you are to spot correlations. Sounds like the data may be a lot of fun to analyze.

jayo

[rshimek]

Originally posted by jayo

Hi,

I think you might also want as much data as possible about the tanks that the samples are coming out of.

Yes, I intend to send a detailed series of questions to each of the participants. I did this with the tank water study, and next month in Reefkeeper (www.reefkeeper.com) I will discuss what effects the various feeding regimes seemed to have.


It would be really neat, for example, if you could show that algae growing in a tank with high phosphate in the water has a higher phosphate level in it than algae growing in a low-phosphate tank (showing that the algae is flexible in how much phosphate it needs to grow).

Sounds like the data may be a lot of fun to analyze.

They are and, of course, they open up avenues for other questions to be asked.

[WWiley]

But when I export bryopsis I'm just not exporting bryopsis. My bryopsis is full of worms and scuds I try save some it's just not possible to get them all. So I export lots of worms and lots of things I probably can't see. They always grow back. WW

[rshimek]

Hi,

Sure, contamination is always a factor, hopefully it can be minimized, but I suspect everybody that exports Bryopsis is exporting bugs and worms. In the long run, they are part of the export as well as the algae, and this is all part of what goes out when you export this alga.

[Plasma]

Ron....150$ to participate and donate a sample of skimmate? Its bad enough folks in this hobby are bamboozled into spending the money they do..then you, a guy they respect jumps in and says send money and slime so I can submit said scum to a lab, have it analyzed, publish the lab's results, further my reputation, and do it with other people's money? I hope that at the least you are going to give all donors co-authorship.

Write a proposal to NSF like the rest of us do.

"Helium" Plasma

[lbussy]

Originally posted by Plasma
Ron....150$ to participate and donate a sample of skimmate? Its bad enough folks in this hobby are bamboozled into spending the money they do..then you, a guy they respect jumps in and says send money and slime so I can submit said scum to a lab, have it analyzed, publish the lab's results, further my reputation, and do it with other people's money?

That's pretty much how all science goes.

I hope that at the least you are going to give all donors co-authorship.

Sponsor=co-authorship? Sweet! I can be listed when they cure cancer and AIDS.

Write a proposal to NSF like the rest of us do.

Sounds like he got a grant the first time and I'm betting he'll try again. I'm no scientist but I do know that all he's trying to do is scratch the surface. Simply by looking at all the interest and suggestions posted there's no way he could answer all the questions everyone's wanting to know with the money available.

He's not unduly influencing anyone, he's a researcher looking for participants/sponsors. My hat is off to him for undertaking the work. I can only imagine how different my job would be if I had to beg for money each time I needed to do something.

Cut the guy some slack and if you don't want to send money, don't.

[piercho]

Doc, I'd like to contribute less than $150, and won't be sending a sample (of course). Perhaps other RC members could provide smaller donations (that their spouses wouldn't require explanations for), and Dr Ron could use that pool to kick in a few more samples (from whomever's tank) towards a more complete array of samples to test.

[ReefSpy]

Ron


I export quite a bit of caluerpa. I would imagine you would want test samples of this too? Also, a ping-pong sized ball of skimmate is not unusual for my skimmer after 2 weeks....... I will definately consider contributing. Is this $150 per sample?

[rshimek]

Piercho,

I do accept and use donations. Such do help defray costs. The sample costs are actually considerably more than $150/sample and donors have helped lower the cost for all the participants.

Contributors and participants are both acknowledged (see the acknowledgments section of my
Reefkeeping article in the February issue.

ReefSpy,

Yes, I will sending in samples of Caulerpa (a couple of different kinds) myself. Other folks will be sending in Xenia, skimmate, etc.

Each material has to analyzed as a separate sample, so yes, it is an additional $150 pop.

Sorry...