Tank is crashing

[Swanwillow]

your welcome

although that wasn't defensive enough. Be stronger next time! more, forcefully!

How are the fish doing, anywho?

[tmz]

Puffers are predatory.

[demonsp]

If this is a 90 gallon and he has a koralia 3 and 4 then he is lacking flow and not by a little. Then He says FOWLR and stocks with with fish and 1 FOWLR fish. Then states FOWLR but i added some coral but its still a FOWLR.Thats funny.

Then he listed like 5 colors of nori he uses but it sounded like coraline. Ive only seen 2 and mine only eats one type. If they arent getting enough nutrients and they have low O2 levels then your asking for trouble.

Then he is trusting a LFS for his water readings which is only good for double checking your test kits readings.

Everybody is sugar coating this thing.I see many people who ask and then if they dont recieve the answer they wanted will walk around the subject and finaly give up.

[Sk8r]

THe puffer being wounded is interesting. That could have triggered a toxin in itself. Was there a tang involved? I can't remember.

He did explain the lfs water-check, Demon---it was a doublecheck. Does have his own tests. This one is a bit of a poser, not the usual obvious causes...beyond some more fish than maybe should have been...but this is not the typical overstock-crash-mess. THere's a weird pattern of gasping on the bottom of the tank, not the top, and odd fish surviving, while others died.

I do fully understand your desire to hang onto the puffer: they're very personable little guys.

I would suggest if you're having trouble with blowing sand, use a T joint for a nozzle. Calms it right down.

[demonsp]

If this is a 90 gallon and he has a koralia 3 and 4 then he is lacking flow and not by a little. Then He says FOWLR and stocks with reef fish and 1 FOWLR fish. Then states FOWLR but i added some coral but its still a FOWLR.Thats funny.

Then he listed like 5 colors of nori he uses but it sounded like coraline. Ive only seen 2 and mine only eats one type. If they arent getting enough nutrients and they have low O2 levels then your asking for trouble.

Then he is trusting a LFS for his water readings which is only good for double checking your test kits readings.

Everybody is sugar coating this thing.I see many people who ask and then if they dont recieve the answer they wanted will walk around the subject and finaly give up.

I may sound rude or mean but im not,i only want to help but its hard to help someone who doesnt want it.

[norwall]

Originally posted by demonsp
If this is a 90 gallon and he has a koralia 3 and 4 then he is lacking flow and not by a little. Then He says FOWLR and stocks with reef fish and 1 FOWLR fish. Then states FOWLR but i added some coral but its still a FOWLR.Thats funny.

Then he listed like 5 colors of nori he uses but it sounded like coraline. Ive only seen 2 and mine only eats one type. If they arent getting enough nutrients and they have low O2 levels then your asking for trouble.

Then he is trusting a LFS for his water readings which is only good for double checking your test kits readings.

Everybody is sugar coating this thing.I see many people who ask and then if they dont recieve the answer they wanted will walk around the subject and finaly give up.

I may sound rude or mean but im not,i only want to help but its hard to help someone who doesnt want it.

Are you feeling o.k?

[tmz]

How do you figure a Korilias 3 and a 4 (2100gph) on a 90 gal is lacking flow by not a little?

[tmz]

Swanwillow
Registered Member

Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Bemidji MN
Occupation: DCA
Posts: 1528



mixing FO fish with reef fish has NOTHING to do with sudden deaths of fish-the only REAL difference between 'FO' fish and 'reef' fish is that usually FO fish eat corals and inverts. Keeping a puffer with other fish isn't going to kill them.

Yes it will. Puffers will eat everything including fish,mollusks,shrimp cnidarinas,algae,pizza,ppand j,etc.. I keep two in a fowlr and like them alot and have seen them do it. I was keeping 3 medium sized domino damsels with a dog face. It ate them.I have also seen cases in other's tanks where they will kill alot of snails or other inverts at one time causing an amonia spike. They are very sloppy eaters.

[Sk8r]

Easy, everybody: remember our object is to help a fellow reefer, here, who has had a nasty event in his tank, and who, being new, needs our help. It's not an easy problem. Do read the whole thread---there are some unusual situations here.

I'm totally unfamiliar with puffer toxin. Is it possible the puffer and the tang got into it, producing the cut on the puffer, and the puffer emitted toxin which did for others? A toxin interfering with respiration would have gotten the high oxy demand fishes first, notably tangs, angels, etc, the free-water-swimmers.

[demonsp]

I feel fine by haveing major net problems so going back and rereading is hard and i didnt see where he tested himself first.

I would say that 2 koralia #4 max out at 55 gallons and give very little control like flow control and direction control. Flow is very important and the addition of one high flow powerhead can solve many issue like green hair to nitrate control.

But i still think it is more then one problem and the fact that fish died before any coral shows water quality isnt the main issue.

Heavy breathing is a sign of low flow and it doesnt matter if they breathvy in the bottom or top , there just trying to get some air.Its like there at a high altitude with no oxygen to help.

[tmz]

I run two korilias 4s on a 90 gal sps tank. That gives me 2400gallons of flow plus another 600 in return flow for a total of 3000gph or 33x tank volume. With the creatures in his tank he could do very well with as little as 10x volume or 900 or so gph. Maxing out on a 55 with two K 4s means you are setting a minimum rewuirement of 53xtank volume for a tank with a few corals most of which require low to moderate flow.

[demonsp]

tmz how old is this tank?And any stock? Any pics?

[tmz]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1222848

That thread has pictures of my mixed 120gwhich has about 2000gph flow(it is 15mos old). The other tank picture is an lps dominated 90 gal with about 1000gph flow. The new tank is now to the right of the 90 in the picture completing n 11 foot display. I don't have pictures of it yet.

[demonsp]

im confused. I see you added a new powerhead in there. And i see lots of coraline.Your SB in those pics looks real nice.Im guessing you dont have many fish in there.

I dont see any koralias like these. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...5&pcatid=15955

Yours look more powerfull. Not sure if have seen this .

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/view

Your tank looks to be a tall so the length really helps from low flow. I just would not trust those myself in that tank.

But you have a great looking tank.

[tmz]

Lance, The two powerheads in the 120g are just old aquaclear phs with only about 320gph each .They have hydor rotating deflectors on them. There are 17 fish in the 120. Lots of caves and hideouts and swim throughs. The 90g houses 7 fish. The new tank with the korillias is not picured yet.The flow far exceeds the two tanks pictured. I do believe in flow but not in excessive amounts for lps in particular. The lps tank(5.5 yrs) pictured has no powerheads. It has two returns totaling 700gph or so and a 300 gph closed loop running through a uv. I also think 50plus x volume of th tank is high and 10 to 30 is very workable.

[demonsp]

Thats it though. I did see many caves and holes and loose rock for flow to pass thru and less restriction. But i see many that clump the rock together and then spot flow or higher flow will be needed in this areas. I asked how much LR he had and a pic for placement as htis is a main newbie mistake. If your tanks look the same now as pictured then you have a very good balance.

But i didnt see 17 fish nor did i see pics of the tank with the koralias so you havnt confinced me of the positive affects of a korlias in any tank over a 55. But i do think you know what your doing. I like you only want to help.

[justinpsmith]

Sorry to hear about the troubles you have been having. Also sorry about some of the response you are getting...

First off, only certain Puffers have a neurotoxin in their internal organs (primarily in the ovaries and liver) that can be deadly if INGESTED. Smaller amounts of the toxin has been found in the skin of some puffers but again, would need to be ingested to cause problems. They cannot release toxins into the water column in the way a Cowfish for example can. So no issue there.

One of the most ridiculous statements:

"If this is a 90 gallon and he has a koralia 3 and 4 then he is lacking flow and not by a little. Then He says FOWLR and stocks with reef fish and 1 FOWLR fish. Then states FOWLR but i added some coral but its still a FOWLR.Thats funny."

Flow is relative to an individual set up and cannot be "right" or "wrong". I have seen many successful low flow 90G set ups and I have seen many high flow 90G set ups. We certainly can get an idea of how much flow a tank has by an equipment list but to say it is lacking based on such a list is inaccurate to say the least. Not to mention that a Koralia 3 and 4 is not too bad in a 90G...Again, depending on what you are trying to achieve.

Next...There is no such thing as a "FOWLR fish" or a "reef fish". He has FISH. There are fish that are considered Reef SAFE and other that are generally considered NON Reef safe but this is just a guideline. A tank classified as FOWLR has absolutely NOTHING to do with what species of fish you keep in it. Fish Only With Live Rock. A non reef tank with live rock and a few fish of ANY kind is a FOWLR. Yes he mentioned adding a few mushrooms...I would hardly call that a reef. As he said, its more the spirit of the tank and not the fact that he has a few soft corals. Most would consider this a FOWLR.

And what does any of this mentioned about have to do with his problems...Nothing...

I did read the full thread but forget a few details.

What are you monitoring PH with? Could there have been a swing at all? Tangs can be quite sensitive. Puffers are generally a little more hardy with PH or salinity swings. Just a thought.

What symptoms did the Puffer show? Same as the tangs but a little less severe?

Did any of the fish that died have a slight darkening around the edges of their fins? Kind of like being slightly burnt?

How did the tangs eyes look?

How did the gills look?

I guess a bit more info about the fish that passed couldn't hurt. I think you need to try to get an idea of what has happened here to avoid any more problems and be sure your puffer will be ok.

Hope you get it all figured out!

[Swanwillow]

thank you justinpsmith, you got across what I was trying to say! The difference in a name has nothing to do with his tank suddenly having fish deaths, and I also doubt the puffer had anything to do with this. You can also have tons and tons of flow, and low oxygen.

Honestly, I think this is going to be one of those unsolved cases-where he'll never be able to figure out what happened.

[justinpsmith]

Originally posted by Swanwillow
thank you justinpsmith, you got across what I was trying to say! The difference in a name has nothing to do with his tank suddenly having fish deaths, and I also doubt the puffer had anything to do with this. You can also have tons and tons of flow, and low oxygen.

Honestly, I think this is going to be one of those unsolved cases-where he'll never be able to figure out what happened.

I have a feeling you may be right about never knowing the cause here. I have had a few fish die in the past suddenly for no apparent reason and never did figure out why. There are just too many factors we cannot account for in a case like this.

Its better to at least factor out what it most likely was NOT, such as the puffer or the fact that this is a FOWLR tank with mushrooms

[ledford1]

You're off base. I've tried to be polite, but you keep pushing. While I appreciate all perspectives and ideas, your comments just aren't helping, add that to your tone, and it just comes off poorly.

Originally posted by demonsp
If this is a 90 gallon and he has a koralia 3 and 4 then he is lacking flow and not by a little.

If you could please point me to where I mentioned the word "Koralia," until now, I'd appreciate it. I don't even own a Koralia. I have mentioned twice that my 90 has a pair of Tunze Streams (both are the controllable 6000). As for flow, that's up to 1,850gph (x two) for 3,700gph. That's more than 41x flow I can push around in this tank.

Originally posted by demonsp Then He says FOWLR and stocks with with fish and 1 FOWLR fish. Then states FOWLR but i added some coral but its still a FOWLR.Thats funny.[/B]

We've been over this, so continuing to bring it up isn't adding anything more to the conversation. Technically, it is a reef tank because of my 5 mushrooms - the type of fish in the tank have noting to do with categorizing the style of tank. But to me, it's mostly a FOWLR setup. It's more honest and accurate a description to say it's a FOWLR with a 2-pound rock in the corner of the tank with 5 mushrooms on it, than to say I have a reef tank - again that's just my perspective. When someone says "reef tank," the image conjured in my head looks far different than that of my tank. I still realize that by definition, if you add just one coral, you have a reef tank. I just wanted to go over that one more time with you so we can move on, and I hope that helps explain why I described the tank as I did.

Originally posted by demonsp Then he listed like 5 colors of nori he uses but it sounded like coraline. Ive only seen 2 and mine only eats one type.[/B]

Wow. Because you have never heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. When you belittle someone, at least be knowledgeable.

I did list 5 types of seaweed when listing what I feed, but I did goof and say "brown" twice, so actually there are just 4 types of seaweed that I feed. I feed each to add nutritional variety, and my fish ate each type.

But to expand your horizons, I'll give you some links that will provide visual evidence that there are more than just 2 types of seaweed:
Ocean Nutrition
Two Little Fishes

Originally posted by demonsp
Then he is trusting a LFS for his water readings which is only good for double checking your test kits readings.

Again, I'm not sure we're on the same page. Perhaps your experience with, and concept of, a LFS is strictly negative. I agree that there are many poor fish stores out there. But I said "trusted LFS" and I meant it. I've had people who moved here from Los Angeles, and other cities for that matter, tell me this LFS is one of the best they've ever seen. And my experience with this LFS had led to a good trust in the store's quality and knowledge base. When the people of this store tell me something, I'll take it to heart.

Add to that, I believe all my test kits have come from this LFS - we'd be using the exact same test kits, using the same water from my tank, and we'd get the same results. I'm also red-green color blind, so reading some of the color coding on the scales of certain tests kits is difficult for me, so I'd have to have my wife compare the colors for the reading.

Originally posted by demonsp
I may sound rude or mean but im not,i only want to help but its hard to help someone who doesnt want it.

Yes you do, and it doesn't bode well for the reputation of RC - so for the benefit of all the members you try to help in the future, please try to be more respectful. But when have I said I don't want any help? That makes no sense. I have created this thread and layed out the workings for all to see, purposefully exposing myself and this tank to outside insight and criticism. This puppy has been on its back with its belly in the air.




All right? We've aired that out. Now let's move forward...

[ledford1]

I believe I have found the source of my troubles - equipment failure.

As suggested earlier in the thread, I bought a mulitmeter to test for stray current in the tank. In the meantime to be more safe, I had turned off all electrical equipment in the tank but the heater and the Streams.

In this basic operation, I tested and found no electricity in the water.

Then, I plugged in the skimmer. The pump on my CSS220 did nothing when I plugged it in - big red flag. I tapped on the pump to see if that would get it going, and about that time a bad odor began to come up off the pump. It was the smell of something burning.

I immediately took the skimmer and pump out of the water. The pump continued to smell, so now it's sitting on the back patio.

Piecing this together... something in the pump went wrong, perhaps a short, began burning and producing toxin in the tank. It started off small, because there was no odor detected when the fish began dropping, but it gradually got worse. That brings me to where I am now.

That must have been what began killing off my tank.

Now, it's time to find a replacement pump for my skimmer. So I need some help again.

I bought the skimmer second-hand. In the past, I had been able to find PDFs of instruction manuals to the CSS on the ESU Web site, but now the ESU Web site links to Oceanic, and I can't find the skimmers there. The pump also doesn't have any ID on it.

I may need to head to the Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment forum, but does anyone know what pump this is, and/or where I can get a replacement?

[ledford1]

And for those who had inquired about my remaining fish, they are all doing fine. I think the gobies miss having a sandbed while in the QT, but they are eating. And my Dogface seems to have fully recovered, save the cut on his head that gives him the Harry Potter look. I'm sure that too will heal though.

I wish I could have figured this out sooner and saved the others as well.

It is of some consolation that I have figure this out though, and can get this mess resolved.

[norwall]

Do you mean by css a coralife super skimmer? I think All glass aquarium owns Oceanic and Coralife now. I remember that when my pump went out on mine, individual parts were not available but a complete pump should be. Are you sure you would want to take the chance with that pump again though? Maybe a Sedra needle-wheel pump would work on the coralife?

[phil519]

looking it up - the coralife super skimmer 220 runs off a pump pushing 650~700 gph....that would be a rio plus 2100 (for example). I am not (in this post) making any claims or basis of backing up this pump/vendor. If it were me - I'd get a different skimmer.

Besides the pump though...probably might better to start separate thread as to how to minimize current leaks (e.g. grounding probe, gfci etc.)

[tmz]

I'm glad you found the short.Sorry if I inadvertantly contributed to taking your thread off track. Some of the advice you were getting was just wrong and needed to be corrected. I also found the tone offensive.
Fyi only and certainly not to be mean, there are plug in gfcis that go for about $10. You just plug the male end into any outlet and the female end is a gfci circut. I like them better than using outlets because the whole cirut doesn't go only what's plugged into the single outlet. Iuse them with power strips.

A couple of additional thoughts:

I'm glad the puffer toxin issue was cleared up. I had never heard that they could release toxins. They can , in my experience, however, be very aggressive to other fish. They certainly will eat snails and shrimp. In your situation you noted a dead tang and a puffer with a cut on his face as well as a dead shrimp and a few dead snails. You also noted that you had fish die/disappear in the past with the puffer as the sole survivor. Considering the puffer combined with an ammonia spike from a glut of dying tissue should you continue to lose fish or inverts is a very plausible approach. I hope it's not the case .
For future reference, copper will kill the inverts in your tank including the mushrooms. The calcerous substrate and and any rock you have in there will absorb some of it and leech it back later making it unsafe for a tank with inverts and mollusks.

Sorry for your lost pets. Good Luck