The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[RandyStacyE]

A.R. = Aritificial Rock

A.L.R. = Aritificial Live Rock

I like MAN MADE myself ...

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by ozadars
I have 0 nitrates, I couldnt test the phosphates but I am having some hair algae problem. I dont know if its related with the rock in any way.

Hello to you in Turkey, Ozadars!
Sorry your post got lost in the shuffle - but I finally remembered that I had read your post, and thought I'd let you know you weren't completely forgotten, lol!

I don't remember the particulars for your tank - if in fact I ever knew them. Is this a new tank (less then a year)? If so, you just might be getting maturation algae. Is it growing on the MRL or the Real Live Rock? Do you use RO/DI water? If so and you don't tend to over-feed, I wouldn't bother testing phosphates (some LFS will test for you - some for free, some will charge a few bucks), though it could be organics in the water as well. And cement varies from plant to plant and from country to country, so it is possible that there is something in your cement that the algae really likes. Could be other stuff too.
However, get a few more algae eaters, control organic input and maintain H2O parameters, and it should go away, given time.

How about a picture?

[Kent E]

Gary marzchack's (sp) tank of the month, had cinderblocks in it. I don't know if it's actual cinder or not but it definitely was what basements in all of New York are made of and is readily called "cinder block". If you were to go into Lowes or Home Depot and purchased a cinder block, this is what Gary had in his tank for years and years, maybe even a decade. I hope he finds this and chimes in.

BTW, I like the term Kure.

[Insane Reefer]

Hey Kent Welcome to the thread!

As said, a lot of folks don't know that there is a difference (I myself didn't until about a year ago), and many call all blocks cinder blocks simply because that is what they heard someone else call it at some point (that's what my daddy called them).

And I am sure that some folks have used actual cinder blocks in their reefs, but cinder blocks do tend to deteriorate, and for use in exterior building purposes, most contractors had stopped using them in the 70's and 80's, unless the construct was on the upwards side of a grade. That is enough to make me not want to use or recommend anyone using actual cinder blocks in a reef.

I've also been reading that cinder blocks haven't been mass produced in 50 years or so. I'm trying to substantiate this - Googling for manufacturers is bringing up hits, but when you go to them, it talks about CMU, or concrete blocks, or if the term cinder block is used, it is used as a "catch all" for hits, or is even mistakenly used for CMU's. And the last time I bought some blocks for my yard, Lowes only had concrete blocks.

I think this is something that Rhody and I can agree to get peeved over - the confusion between cinder and concrete blocks.

Interesting link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinder_block

[frazier]

what cement did they use on the show Dirty Jobs with those reef balls they made? They said it has a PH marine grade cement. It would be nice to get some of that!!!

[frazier]

on their web site it keeps talking about Mircosilica.

[Insane Reefer]

Hi Frazier, Welcome to the thread!

I haven't seen the "Dirty Jobs" you reference, but I do know that marine grade cement is generally "Type V" which is difficult to find unless you are on a coast (or maybe a desert). But you might be able to find "Type LH/SR", "Type MS", or "Type HS", which are also resistant to sulfate attack. "Type II" is the next best type, but "Type I" works too.
Basically, look for low magnesium cement - that's the main thing that makes these cement "sulfate resistant" - that and things like fly ash or micro-silica....

Micro-Silica is known for "binding" the alkalinity of cement, and Reef Balls does use it. Cayars and Neptune both use it as well.
I am not fond of it for two reasons. One, the rocks made with micro-silica are extremely dark - almost black IME. Two, micro-silica works because it sort of fills the pores and capillaries of cement, which are an important part of water transport through cement, as well as providing even more area's for bacteria to populate.

Some feel that micro-silica does more good than harm, but I tried a couple of batches and didn't see enough difference to make it worth the money or the effort involved in finding it - but some people do swear by it, so...

Anyway, see you folks on the 26th!

Happy Holidays!!!

[sunkool]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer

Oh! And Sunkool - how did the smoker work? Did you ever get around to smoking your rock? If so, tell us how that went, if you would

I got high for about 20 minutes, beat the wife, and spent night in jail. I'll never do that again.

[Rustylugnuts]

LOL not THAT rock!

[2004jeepoutlander]

sorry for the wait yes here are some pics insane reefer
http://zeroimpactreefs.tripod.com

[Altpers0na]

can we get the jiffy rock formula please?

[Insane Reefer]

Was Santa good to everyone this year? I get to make a $200 order from Sealife Inc (unless someone knows a good reason not to order from them that is?), and finally stock my 'Cube!
I'm so excited!
Anyway...

Excellent, work Jeff! Getting the aquaculture off the ground too - awesome
Thanks for sharing the pics - the more pics people see, I think it becomes more likely someone might be willing to try it on their own

Altersona, Welcome to the thread!
If you will send me a email address via PM, I will gladly get that for you - it is currently in Word Doc format, and longer then will fit into a PM, so shoot me an addy I can send that to, ok?

[Insane Reefer]

Ok, I've had 7 requests this morning for the Jiffy Rock Method, so I'm just going to post it here.

Keep in mind that while it does work, and does produce rock that can be used in 9 days, the high heat involved might cause problems within the cement at any point. This is also a potential problem with the "Salt Rock" that the thread was started on - the risk potential is about equal for either type of rock. So far, my test pieces that have been in salt water for 6 months show no problems, but I feel it is important to provide a cautionary note - neither Jiffy nor Salt Rocks have been in use long enough to claim that they are completely 100% going to hold up for years and years to come. If you want more info on potential problems, try googling "chloride attack", a potential problem with the Salt Rocks. Most of which that is written pertains to the construction industry and how it effects reinforced steel, but it also messes with the cement itself, so look for that, also look for "Delayed Ettringite Formation", which is the main worry for the Jiffy Rock method

Anyway, I'm working on a refined method that will remove the high heat issue and would require an "Igloo" type cooler (or deep freezer) and a pressure cooker like is used for canning food. When that is ready to disclose, I will do so in full.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask - I will try to answer to the best of my ability

Without any further ado...


Jiffy Rock Method For DIY Rock
I am not responsible for injuries or damages incurred by using this process! This is a DIY project, and could be dangerous if done stupidly!

Keep in mind that this has only been tested with the "Ol' Skool +" and Perlcrete type rock. I’ve made one test batch of the salt and sand only rock, and the salt is very difficult to release – try this method with salt and sand only rock only if you cast them really “fluffy”, with lots of holes.

Anyway.
Make a batch of rock - in damp sand for preference.
After 18-36 hours (the sooner, the better the results seem to be), carefully remove your rocks, brush them off and then get ready to bake them in a 450°F oven. They will still be punky, or sort of soft - that is exactly what we want - green rock.

To prep the oven, remove all fancy pans, etc. Cover racks with foil. Line bottom of oven with more foil. Fill a shallow metal cake pan (use an old (or cheap) pan) with hot water, and place as low as you can in the oven. I find that if I remove one rack completely, I can place the pan on the oven floor, place a rack above it and have lots of room for the rock.

Prep kitchen for acrid fumes. These fumes are not deadly, just fairly unpleasant. A fan venting in the window works great. Sheet over the kitchen door prevents most smell from migrating too much. Doing this at night keeps the heat down in the house.

Now place rocks inside - they can touch, or even be piled – just don’t touch the active heating element.
Turn oven on to 450°F. Bake for 4-6 hours. This needs to be a really moist heat, so halfway though, check the water level and add more hot water if needed.

Allow to cool for 1 hour, in the oven, with the door closed. While this is happening, prep water for salt release. The water needs to be hot. Hook a hose to your laundry hookup, boil it, or use your imagination - but the water needs to be hot.

Now, wearing gloves (I use chemical gloves) and eye protection, take the rock out of the oven (be careful, it will still be hot rock), and plunge it into your Hot release water. Plunge it in and out of the water several times to really get the water inside it. You may notice your water starting to simmer - this is great - it will help remove all the salt and crud quicker. Do all pieces, leave them in there and then allow water to cool. Drain. Again, using hot water, refill and allow to cool. Do this one more time.

If using a salt recipe, you will need to release the salt completely before moving on to the next step - this could take you a day or more to complete - figure 6-8 hours between refills, (heavy, dense pieces, or sand/salt only rocks will definitely take longer to be ready). Alternatively, you can just simmer the rock – it will require at least 12 hours this way, but finishes it quickly. Water will need to be changed in a simmer release, same as without simmering, but the time frame is greatly reduced. Simmer an hour or three, then change water.
When you think the salt is out, rinse the rock with clean water, pick-up a piece, allow the water to drain from it and catch the last drop or two from the bottom side on the tip of your finger – now taste it. Is it salty like chips? Or does it taste like mineral water?

After salt has been released, now we will soak in vinegar. I'm still working on ratios, so you can feel free to experiment at this stage. I'm going to recommend 1/2 gallon of vinegar to 4 gallons of water, which seems to work well. Look for the highest % you can on the vinegar - it comes in 4%-10% at the store. I'm looking into citric acid as well, so this step may change in the future. You just need enough liquid to cover the rocks and allow about 4" clearance over the top of the highest rock.

Allow rock to soak, for 3 days. Use a powerhead or pump to circulate the solution, if possible.
------------------------------------------------
At this point, the rock is as low as it will get with this method – all the rest of this follow stuff is testing. Make a note of how old your rock is at this point. Isn’t this cool? I’ve had rocks a month old that didn’t have a pH this low yet…

If you are not a Lab Monkey, Start a normal water kure now. Should take a week and a few water changes.
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Baking Tips and Observations
These are some tips and observations I've made over the last several bakes.

1. Use foil to cover the bottom of your stove as well as each rack you leave in. Efflorescence will be pulled out of the rock and form tiny puddles where your rock touches the foil. Your rock will be glued to the foil at these points, so when you pull it out, sand may go everywhere if you are not careful. Foil on the oven floor will prevent having to clean the stove so much afterward, and make the head of your kitchen happier with you.

2. Use a shallow metal cake/pie pan (or 2) in the oven to provide plenty of moisture. DO NOT USE GLASS OR PYREX! Half-way though the bake, check the pan to make sure it has water left in it. A dry bake will ruin the rock, moisture is the key.

3. Some stoves have a vent under one of the back burners. If you can, cover this vent with a metal cup or bit of foil. You may have to loosen/remove the burner to do this, but this will prevent the loss of too much moisture.

4. Turn off the houses' internal fans, etc. You want the fumes to remain confined to the kitchen. The fumes are nasty, mostly just the smell is bad, and not harmful as long as you don't go hang out in them. Use a fan in the kitchen window, and open the windows in other parts of the house to form a “draw though”. This will help with fumes.

5. When bake cycle is done, just turn off the stove and leave the rock lone for an hour. While the rock is hot, you will be in the greatest danger you will face - plunging your rocks. I think this exponentially speeds up salt release (if used), especially when really hot water is used and releases a lot of the crud. If the water you use is too cool, and the rocks too hot, they could explode, so be careful, and wear gloves and goggles for this step!

6. I will recommend to folks making the salt/cement or salt/cement/sand recipes to actually simmer the water they use for release, and if possible simmer the rocks themselves. I had a lot of trouble releasing the salt from these (though I don't make this recipe often, so that may be part of it), and if you are at the stove anyway, this will make it go faster. If you simmer the rocks, just make sure to use a pot that isn't going to be missed - you will more than likely not want to use it for food after this. Salvation Army or GoodWill might be places to find cheap stockpots for this.

[Insane Reefer]

And let me take a minute to thank my "Lab Monkeys". Since I only have emails, and real names, I won't list you all, but I wanted it publicly known that I appreciate the efforts you went to for a DIY Rock experiment. Without your efforts, I'd still be doing tests, or might have even given up on it.

These guys made a lot of test rock and did a great job on reporting back their results - of which all but one where successful. It was their willingness to try something new that helped keep the spark alive

So thanks guys - you all rock.

[Altpers0na]

thanks for posting the jiffy..

its a bit more complex than i had wished.. not hard.. but doubt the mrs is gonna let me...

will have to get my own oven...

[Insane Reefer]

Np, Altpersona
It does sort of sound complicated, but really, it is almost as simple as the traditional method, and a lot, lot quicker, which can be a point on the up side as many folks don't have the ready space to make, cure and kure rock the traditional way...

Tell the missus that the moisture in the oven will loosen any grime there might be, and offer to clean it out when done. It is almost as good as oven cleaner, without the really nasty fumes associated with chemical oven cleaners. I'm pretty sure I'd let my hubby use my oven for pretty much anything he wanted, if he offered to clean it afterward

[Rustylugnuts]

I wish I had a large pressure cooker layin around. I believe that would work better than the oven. A good sized one can be found for less than the price of a good skimmer. I wonder how much rock can fit in a 23qt found on amazon

[Rhodophyta]

Originally posted by Altpers0na
thanks for posting the jiffy..

its a bit more complex than i had wished.. not hard.. but doubt the mrs is gonna let me...

will have to get my own oven...

What about resin rock? No oven, or extra steps. Inert as soon as the resin dries. Subtitute a smaller amount of epoxy resin for the portland cement. Line the work area or mold if you use one with wax paper. Resin rock can be made much thinner than regular aragocrete because it has more strength.

[Insane Reefer]

Good idea, but one needs to make sure what sort of resin (polymer) they choose - many (if not all) polymers render the cement fairly impermeable, so it wouldn't be so good for filtration....
I'd think that you could do some interesting lacy things for effect though.

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by Rustylugnuts
I wish I had a large pressure cooker layin around. I believe that would work better than the oven.... I wonder how much rock can fit in a 23qt found on amazon

Yes, it would work better then the oven (though if you can only do a couple of pieces in the cooker, energy consumption would be an issue - oven is bigger than a cooker), but the idea of feeding the steam from a pressure cooker to a "sauna" is all about avoiding the heat completely. From what I've been reading, cement/concrete, when curing, shouldn't ever go above something like 165-175°F, which is cooler then boiling water - I'd think that putting rock directly in a pressure cooker would still have the same deleterious effects as baking could have, unless one were very careful with the temperature of the water.

[2004jeepoutlander]

your making m ymind think REAL @#%&&$ hard

[Rustylugnuts]

Maybe its time to break out the monkeys again. It would be cool to find out what would be a good time frame for a pressure cook would be. I have a really small cooker I'll have to bust that out & see about settin aside some rocks outta my next batch. What would be a good timeframe to start with? The jiffy rox time frame is 4-6 hrs w/pressure @ H20bp I would expect considerably less time. What would be the low ball estimate? It would be cool to grab several batches and try different times (40mins -2 hrs in some time interval test results by curing batches in separate 5gal buckets)

[Insane Reefer]

LOL! Jeff

I have to ask; what is "H20bp", Rusty?
I've been pricing pressure cookers for the sauna. I've found this to be the best price so far:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...duct_id=931856
It is large enough for my purpose, but it isn't big enough to do more then a small rock if used like you are thinking.

I don't see why your idea wouldn't work; just make sure you use the trivet and keep the rock above the water I'd think.

I'd recommend those interested in doing the steam curing to read: http://www.cement.ca/cement.nsf/3769...5?OpenDocument.


This image shows a total of 18 hours (for atmospheric steaming) - part of which is the time that the rock would sit in the mold, hardening, the rest in the steam chamber. We generally have to leave our rock alone for a minimum of 12 hours or risk breakage. Mostly I leave mine in the mold for 16-18 hours, and on average do a 5 hour "steam". It doesn't seem like the time frame will change much with the revised JRM (Jiffy Rock Method), but I will need to "ramp" the temps up and back down properly, which I didn't know before doing more in-depth investigation.

Pressure steaming is something I have no experience at, so all I can do is quote at you. Since I've never actually looked at a pressure cooker, I'm not positive about things like psi, etc. I'll tell you what I can though.

"Low pressure steam curing is curing with steam at pressures less than 150 psi (1MPa). Pieces are placed in a chamber or kiln where steam is injected through perforated pipes for about 8 to 10 hours. Typically the steam is produced in a boiler which requires periodic blowdown."

"The autoclave or high pressure steam curing is accomplished when high pressure steam is injected at pressure. The process uses temperatures of 275° to 375°F and pressures of up to 170 psi (1.17MPa). Steam is injected for up to eight hours. "

This should be enough to get you at least pointed in the right direction. I'd use google and see what you can come up with too.

[Rustylugnuts]

H20bp is just a lazy way of saying the boiling point of water

[Rustylugnuts]

From what you've posted (thanks btw!) it appears that we are using a atmospheric steam curing for the jiffy rocks.
I think I'm going to have to play with the regular jiffy rock to see 1st hand the strength. My 1st two batches (1:.5:2.5 cement sand salt) got the 28 day air cure after the salt release and before the soak . Batch1 ,the cow poo batch, was too wet and overmixed and the thinner pieces crumbled and broke up into smaller chunks and are breakable by hand. I still ended up with useable rock. Batch2 was mixed a bit dryer, though still probably a tad too wet, and produced rocks you could stand on that yeilded a lot less flake off. If 80% of the strength of batch2 can be attained w/pressure cooking think it would be good enough for our uses.
IMO the air cure is way more forgiving as well as easier. After playing around w/this for a while to satisfy my monkey curiosity I think its likely that I'll only use the pressure cooking ( or any cooking for that matter) for frag plugs.