Who wants to talk about coral morphing

[Reeferhead]

You are correct; to create a hybrid there must be sexual reproduction either natural or transgenic. However, I'm suggesting that it’s possible for two corals to fuse together for reciprocal-altruistic or mutualistic reasons, a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" type of relationship.

The genetic structure of both corals stays the same; we still have two unaltered genotypes, however, because they are so closely related they can cohabitate on the same skeleton and share resources like nutrients. The adaptive advantage would be the ability to handle two different environment regimes.

Purely hypothetical example:

Monti "A" is best adapted for lower flow; its polyp structure is such that it traps food particles best at water velocities lower than 0.5 Meter/Second. Monti "B" is the opposite and is at its optimum productivity and growth at velocities greater than 2.0 M/S.

Alone on the reef, the the two corals grow individually. In the summer the ocean currents average 0.3 m/s and "A" thrives growing quickly and unable to even utilize all the nutrients it gathers. However, "B" is stunted and in danger of being over taken by other species of corals.

In the winter, the roles reverse, currents pick up to average over 3.5 M/S and "B" takes off while "A"s polyps can't handle the extreme currents and begins to die back.

However, one day a piece of "A" falls on top of "B" and the two corals begin to fuse. As the two different polyps begin to replicate they intermingle with one another so that an "A" polyp is always next to a "B" polyp. They're closely related enough to share nutrients through normal transport mechanisms, intercellular or otherwise, yet are still seperate organisms, perhaps even different species. In the summer "A" shares with "B" and in the winter "B" shares with "A". Both corals sacrifice some individual growth for part of the year but gain the adaptive advantage of more consistent growth year round preventing it from being overgrown by the competition.

Of course this is all theory, I've never read any papers about two corals utilizing mutualism, co-operation, or reciprocal altruism but it’s possible. There are countless examples of this type of relationship in nature. Here is a paper on reef sponges doing pretty the same thing I just explained.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=001...3E2.0.CO%3B2-I

[geoxman]

While i have never really messed with SPS-it is very easy to morph certain species of zoanthids. The main and easiest to have a drastic change to lighting and tank conditions is the Zoanthus Gigantus species. Take a look at zoaid and you can tell this is very evident--look at AOG as well, two totally different morphs of the same frag kept in different systems. That is why that site is almost a complete waste, as any laymen can tell there are the same polyps with multiple names. They are also not scientifically broken down by species or geographic region-for the most part. Just some given name?

It is also rather peculiar how the same type polyp/gene wise can be a total different color from a different part of the world. ie.. Eagle eyes from Vietnam/Indonesia are much more red in color while the exact polyp from Fiji is distinctly more orange??
No amount of increased/decreased light or other variables will change them? I have tried many different approaches and to no avail.

I have never able to completely change a color on the smaller Zoanthus Sociatus(sp) These will just get brighter or duller depending on the tank conditions/nutrients/chemistry and light. Some will take on other colors in their inner rings or skirt but for the most part they will not appear that much different from when received.

Mushrooms are another coral that intrigues me. I have had many get very intense coloration under VERY high light and K. This is contrary to the typical belief that these corals are low light. I am not a Marine Biologist and a do not play one on TV, so I cant explain this, but have been successful at doing so.

I have not messed with typical softies in many years other than zoanthids and mushrooms so I cant comment on their change. Most seem to be a tan/brown from the wild and say that way. I do have some very bright green Nepthia that is 80's green under any lighting.


This is a refreshing thread and I hope other collectors will chime in.
PL

[capncapo]

I'll grant you that it is most likely not only possible but probably occurs all the time. In that situation you would more or less have two corals that are not only happily co-existing but also are "benevolent" each other.

What I'm wondering is concerning the two corals that happen to "bump into each other" and can't have that happy relationship. They could potentially battle equally for survival and if so, could be repeatedly exposed to the others "toxins". In this case could it be possible that this would or could cause a genetic mutation? If so, the fusing of two corals could, in theory, cause the development of a "third" or even possibly a "fourth" type of coral that could be immune to the toxins.

The third and/or fourth could have certain properties of each of the other two but would not be a genetic clone of either. In that case, we have a "new" coral. Whether it would be expressed in the appearance of the coral or in some other way doesn't really matter as it would still not be a genetic clone of either.

I haven't read anything on the subject and am just playing the Devils Advocate here.

[Reeferhead]

I hope I'm reading you right but I don't think what your trying to explain is possible, well... not in the way you’re explaining it anyway. J

“They could potentially battle equally for survival and could be repeatedly exposed to the others "toxins". In this case could it be possible that this would or could cause a genetic mutation?”

No, this is not likely. Lets say for argument sake, that there is a coral out there that produces a mutagenic chemical to gain an advantage over other corals thus increasing its own fitness. If this mutagen actually altered the genetic structure and caused improvement in defense to the same mutagen then the whole point was defeated and the mutagen would be selected against (via natural selection) to begin with.

“If so, the fusing of two corals could, in theory, cause the development of a "third" or even possibly a "fourth" type of coral that could be immune to the toxins.”

Fusing (grafting) no, gene recombination by sexual reproduction (hybridization) maybe, natural selection… eventually, yes.

One coral could indeed become immune to another’s toxins either via its own immune system or at the genetic scale thru adaptation by natural selection.

[Reeferhead]

If you want a really great classic read on the subject of natural selection you have to check out The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. Its a great read, won't bore you like many scientific novels. I got to warn you though, he doesn't pull any punches against "those of faith."

[DARKSILENTTYPE]

OK here we go

close up


Changed Piece from Mother colony


Mother colony close up


As you can see two pieces one tank and not the same

John

[StupidsReef]

Good read indeed. I moved my Orange Monit cup & a Tan/brownish colored one some what close to each other on the same LR. Both appear to have the same growth rate. However the Tan one seems to create a thicker body where as the Orange is a thinner body. It didn't take long before I noticed they look like the two has now "fused" together and became one big piece. Orange on the right side and Tan on the other, with the middle that started out white, and then began to become thicker after which it turned into a light color of Orange, or maybe a "peach" like color?? I'll try to get some pics of this over the Holiday's for further explaination and proof.

Stupid.

[DARKSILENTTYPE]

Thanks

I'm glad that I'm not the only one having this happen .

Now what I need to do is frag it and give it to someone else to put in their tank and see if it continues to grow with these colors .

John