OK! Enough chat...Starting a 1000g+ Reef

[kinktao]

wow, that's unbelievable what those vortech pumps can do. Hope nothing major happens to your tank, love the thread by the way.

[jnarowe]

Thanks kinktao. Unfortunately it will split soon, so I will have to repost some stuff from the last few pages.

[ycnibrc]

We'll see what happens, but I am fairly certain it will mean a complete dismantling of my system and loss of livestock. That's what ticks me off the most.

wow take down a 1000gal tank then you need a bigger kiddy pool....definitely you need to make Ecotech pay for your pain and suffering. They should have test their product on all senario before sending out to public use.

[46bfinGA]

Well this sucks I just bought four of these damn things tonight for my 3/4"Acrylic tank. Hopefully mine will run cooler using the Wireless drivers? This bums me out to no end.

[ycnibrc]

Hi johnathan

did you mount the pump with or without the round rubber spacer?

[mrcrab]

Jon, from the other folks you've discussed this with, does it seem to be an inherent problem or isolated to a chosen few pumps?

[erics3000]

Wow..Sorry to hear the news. That is just crazy..i was so sold on thoes pumps too..

[jnarowe]

Anthony, you don't use the spacer for 3/4" acrylic. So that may mean that the acrylic thickness could have an indirect impact since there is no rubber insulating it. But I don't know enough about thermal issues to say one way or another.

Barry, there are a myriad of posts regarding the heat issue. Some people have removed them from their systems because they don't want their children to come into contact with the pumps. What temp. are yours operating at?

Eco-Tech's assertion is that the WWd runs the pump more efficiently so it should generate less heat. The reality of it is that using the WWD would most likely cause the pup to ramp up and down, and the net of that is less than 100% continuous flow and therefore lower heat production.

The scary part is that my offending pump was set to about 60% and did the damage. I can only theorize that at some point it malfunctioned and sped up enough to cause the damage. Believe me, when I pulled it off to swap out the driver, I was shocked at what I saw.

[melev]

Is that damage to all four locations, or just the one?

[erics3000]

I was thinking that too Marc. maybe just one pump was bad and over heated. Either way it sucks and I wouldn't take a chance with acrylic

[ycnibrc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jnarowe
[B]Anthony, you don't use the spacer for 3/4" acrylic. So that may mean that the acrylic thickness could have an indirect impact since there is no rubber insulating it. But I don't know enough about thermal issues to say one way or another.

Jonathan I'm not talking about the big one with all the number. There is a thinner one go between the pump and the tank. With that in between the pump and the tank it will block some of the heat from the pump transfer to the tank.

[Thunil]

Awsome tank, been working my way through your thread for a while now, too bad about the pumps, good luck on solving the problem. Hope to see more pics of an improved tank soon.

[Acrylics]

Originally posted by melev
I think drilling out those areas and installing bulkheads just to seal them is an excellent solution. I would be afraid to leave it as is, and I wasn't sure if gluing a patch would work. Since James says no, I'd definitely heed his advice both because he's the expert and he built your tank.

We did not build the tank, at least to my knowledge.

The bulkhead thing was the only idea I could come up with without removing the tank. Any other fix/patch I could think of would be (potentially) inducing too much stress and the tank could go catastrophic. Applying solvent or WO40/42 is adding a chemical stressor to a badly "pre-stressed" area and something I simply could not recommend due the risks involved.

Jonathan, if there is anything I can help you with this, lemme know. I'll do what I can.

James

[46bfinGA]

Jonathan I'm not talking about the big one with all the number. There is a thinner one go between the pump and the tank. With that in between the pump and the tank it will block some of the heat from the pump transfer to the tank. [/B]

Man I hope your right. That would make me feel way better about these. I really dont want to use the Tunze on my tank.

[jnarowe]

Marc: That damage is only to one location. All the other pumps have crazed the tank in a superficial, non structural manner from when we first put them on. Once I had observed that, we turned the pumps down to avoid long-term damage.

AFAICT, this pump did something out of the ordinary.

Anthony: I have always used the rubber gaskets, and when they were rubbing, causing excessive heat, I cut out the centers to make them run cooler. The magnet does not actually touch the glass BTW, or at least it is not designed to do so.

James: Thanks for your post. I didn't catch that comment by Marc. To clarify about my tank, I bought it used specifically for the Vortech line. It was built with 3/4" panels which ordinarily would be considered under spec. for this sized tank. What the builder did was beef up the tank to compensate by using a 2" thick euro-brace and poured in filets. It is an extremely stout tank with zero visible bowing.

And James, you make exactly my point. These pumps run too hot to be used on acrylic, no matter what the thickness is. While they supposedly shut down at 140F, I can tell you from hundreds of measurements, that my heat sink fins have run near and above 150F. That is the EXTERNAL temp. When running at 100% flow, every pump I own would operate at an external temp. above 140F. SO whatever the case, we are at or above your working temp. under load of 130 - 140F.

As far as this being the only case, I doubt that highly. Too many comments online about the heat and IMO it's only a matter of time before people begin to notice the damage. I only noticed mine because the pumps were constantly failing and I had to remove them from the tank repeatedly. With clear tank walls, I could see the crazing. Anyone with black or blue tank walls will never notice it.

As far as Eco-Tech's recommendations etc., they have all along solved problems by recommending that I use only a percentage of their product's specified output. All they had to do is install a fan on the pump shaft to blow air over the pump, and none of this would have happened. I proved it by installing dedicated fans and bringing my pump temps. down below 110F @ 100% flow.

For well over a year they have claimed that my tank room conditions, which can get to 80F, were to blame for the over-heating pumps. Yet now they are pointing the finger at the tank itself. Since many other people are measuring high temps. under better ambient conditions, i guess they had no choice but to switch their approach.

I thought we had a good relationship. I spent countless hours working with them and the Vortech line, even experimenting with run times on my AquaController, trying different gaskets, different shafts, et. al. They only "seem" forthcoming. If you go back through all the threads (and I don't expect you to!!) you will see a pattern of BS right from the beginning. I don't have time to post it all now, but I will when I get the chance.

I appreciate your offer of help, and have had some interesting discussions with Weast about a new tank design I may use involving built in wave boxes. Since my tank is essentially ruined, I will experiment with it to see what comes of that.

[jnarowe]

And James, since you edited and deleted much of your post, I have to clarify again, that Eco-Tech discussing running the Vortech at lower temps. lowers the flow as well. Your discussion of a current 22% margin for error would translate into running them at around 100F which in my experience, means about 50% of flow, or about 1,600 gph.

The problem arises when a pump malfunctons. I know I can run them all day at about 60% (1,920 gph) and not get crazing. But when this pump did what it did, it spiked the temp. That is just too risky IMO for anyone with an acrylic tank.

[steveweast]

Jonathan, as you know, I've never been a fan of the Vortechs....and after seeing yours in person (even before the damage), I'd never consider using them.....there's just better options out there for large tank owners.

Are you planning the bulkhead fix soon ? It really should be only a few hours job to drain half the tank into the kiddie pool....drill the hole....install the bulkhead.....and refill.....then take your time to decide what the long term visual solution will be.

I'm kind of surprised that you haven't posted this as a stand alone thread. Burying this info in this unweildly thread....which is about to split again...seems a disservice to the public good.

[Acrylics]

Hi Jonathan,

Pls keep in mind that the 130-140F number is my recommendation, not necessarily that of acrylic mfrs or anyone else. It is not a published number nor recognized by any entity or other company. Just the number I've found over the yrs that I am comfortable with. I am fairly certain that different mfrs would have different numbers, but they seem to play out fairly accurately.

I can't make any comments on the pumps themselves as I've never used one. So you know, I do not have any relationship with them other than consulting with them as to the best way to fix your tank. Wish I had better advice in this matter. All I "know" regarding their pumps is what I hear & read, none by practical experience.

As for other tanks with damage, I hope you are incorrect but mentioned similar statement to them. Only time will tell.

The ambient 80F number shouldn't pose any problem IMO as this is an ambient temp in many parts of the country/world.

The external heat sink should draw heat from the pump and in theory anyway - should be drawing heat away from the tank as the metal is a better conductor of heat than silicone or any other plastic. So again, in theory, the metal sink should see warmer temps than the tank.

Pls also understand that I deleted part of my post as after re-reading, it could have been interpreted as biased. I am not biased in any way other than wanting to see the industry prosper as a whole.

At some point I will sit and read the thread entirely.

James

[Acrylics]

..just to add, to clarify:
Most acrylic mfrs list 180F as a working temp. They have no way of determining working temp under load in every application. The pump mfr was using a number as a cut-off temp of 140F which would be the 22% "cushion" under the standard 180F workng temp.

If the pumps can spike and overheat above the cut-off temp, well then that is a different story altogether.

James

[EcoTech Marine]

Jon, I’m saddened to see that our efforts to correct this problem so far have not satisfied you. We have offered to repair the tank for you at our cost, including sending a professional to your door to drill out the areas of crazing and install bulkheads.

This is the first and only case of crazing on an acrylic tank out of thousands of VorTechs sold, therefore, we have been doing a lot of research to determine the route cause. Every single acrylic tank manufacturer that we have spoken with has stated that they would not build an acrylic tank of yours’ size (8x5x3’) from ¾” material without first abandoning any type of warranty, implicit or implied. It has been disclosed to us that top bracing will not reduce the stress which will occur along the body of the tank, it will only reduce deflection along the top. We do believe that your tank’s panes are very stressed considering its design and that this is likely a large contributing factor as to why it is the only known case of crazing that our company has experienced. Also, the fact that your tank room is above average temperature at 80deg will lead to our pumps operating at the maximum of their spec’d parameters. We feel it is a combination of all of these underlying factors that has caused this isolated incident. As was mentioned earlier, the working temperature of acrylic is 180deg, our pump is designed to operate well below that temperature to ensure a margin of safety. There is no published data about the working temperature of acrylic under load.

EcoTech Marine is not an acrylic aquarium manufacturer and until recently when we began researching your issue more thoroughly we did not realize that your tank was designed below generally accepted standards. We are not trying to accuse you of having done anything wrong at all or even displace the responsibility entirely upon you as evidenced by our actions to rectify this situation. However, we are simply stating the truth and trying to reflect upon this issue accurately and fairly: other acrylic aquariums don’t craze- yours has. We are trying to put the puzzle together and understand the complete picture.

We believe that the option to repair your tank is the most appropriate action for us both considering what you have disclosed about the hassles associated with removing this aquarium from its stand and installing a new one. We have offered to handle and coordinate this repair for you.

Jon- We are trying to work with you and we are trying to solve this problem as quickly as possible. I called you on Monday morning and have not received a return phone call yet. Even though this issue is obviously stressful for the both of us, we believe that if you want to resolve it that you should work with us to help do so, this means returning my phone calls even if you have been busy; we can always coordinate a time after hours to discuss this. I do not believe it is fair to insinuate here on the board that we are hanging you out to dry. This is simply not the case.

-Tim

[jnarowe]

Originally posted by steveweast
Jonathan, as you know, I've never been a fan of the Vortechs....and after seeing yours in person (even before the damage), I'd never consider using them.....there's just better options out there for large tank owners.

Are you planning the bulkhead fix soon ? It really should be only a few hours job to drain half the tank into the kiddie pool....drill the hole....install the bulkhead.....and refill.....then take your time to decide what the long term visual solution will be.

I'm kind of surprised that you haven't posted this as a stand alone thread. Burying this info in this unweildly thread....which is about to split again...seems a disservice to the public good.

I agree but I have not gotten to that point yet. I want to experiment with 1" acrylic under zero stress to see if it crazes. I'll be setting that up within a day or so as time permits.

[jnarowe]

Originally posted by Acrylics
[B]Hi Jonathan,

Pls keep in mind that the 130-140F number is my recommendation, not necessarily that of acrylic mfrs or anyone else. It is not a published number nor recognized by any entity or other company. Just the number I've found over the yrs that I am comfortable with. I am fairly certain that different mfrs would have different numbers, but they seem to play out fairly accurately.

It is your personal experience that is most important in this discussion IMO. You understand the material in this application better than anyone else I could think of.

As for other tanks with damage, I hope you are incorrect but mentioned similar statement to them. Only time will tell.

The ambient 80F number shouldn't pose any problem IMO as this is an ambient temp in many parts of the country/world.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. Eco-Tech for over a year stated that my tank room temp. was at fault. Now they are blaming the tank itself. I would be willing to bet the house that many other tanks are experiencing at least superficial crazing and the owners don't know about it because they haven't looked, or can't see it because of material color.

Pls also understand that I deleted part of my post as after re-reading, it could have been interpreted as biased. I am not biased in any way other than wanting to see the industry prosper as a whole.

I do understand. Butyour bias is extremely important to teh safety of acrylic tank owners.

At some point I will sit and read the thread entirely.

I wouldn't advise it!

Better to read all the posts in Eco-Tech's forum and elsewhere regarding issues with these pumps. My thread is a twisted quilt of reef keeping, drinking, inuendo, and more floods than I care to admit to.

[ycnibrc]

this post is for ecotech

Your pump is brand new on the market and this is a design problem. If it can happen to Jonathan tank it will happened to others. You need to figure it out before another tank crashing down and really hurt somebody. Do not blame on the acrylic or the room temperature. I owned two vortech on a glass tank and I like the performance of the pump but the way you handle this case tells me more about your company compares to Tunze.

[jnarowe]

Originally posted by EcoTech Marine
Jon, I’m saddened to see that our efforts to correct this problem so far have not satisfied you.

Me too.

We have offered to repair the tank for you at our cost, including sending a professional to your door to drill out the areas of crazing and install bulkheads.

I don't want a tank that looks like Swiss cheese.

Jon- We are trying to work with you and we are trying to solve this problem as quickly as possible. I called you on Monday morning and have not received a return phone call yet. Even though this issue is obviously stressful for the both of us, we believe that if you want to resolve it that you should work with us to help do so, this means returning my phone calls even if you have been busy; we can always coordinate a time after hours to discuss this. I do not believe it is fair to insinuate here on the board that we are hanging you out to dry. This is simply not the case.

-Tim

Actually you have repeatedly hung me out to dry. You have been leading me along for over a year. I don't want to talk to you on the phone because when I do, you convince me to let things go that I shouldn't and you promise things that you later recant.

In our last 45 minute conversation you said you would experiment with one of my pumps that I sent in, and build a fan to keep it cool. I agreed to pay for it.

You also said that Eco-Tech would replace all of my pumps with new ones when I sent my old ones in for the WWD swap. Then I got the first one back and it was the old pump wioth no fan, and you told me that if I ran it on pulse, I wouldn't need the fan. So there I am agreeing to use the pumps at much less than their flow rating.

When I complained that you did not swap out the motor, you said, and I quote, "Do you really need it?"

Why are you posting on this thread? I didn't post in your forum. Do you think that you can convince acrylic tank owners that the Vortech is safe for their tanks?

Your "fixes" are not fixes. I am extremely unhappy with the time and money spent and my personal effort to help with your pumps. We can go right back to the beginning where Eco-Tech stated that the Vortech would operate on any controller/wave maker but with a minimum cycle of 1 minute. And what a strange road that issue has been huh? Then you wnet to 5 minutes, then to 10, and ultimately to 20...all the while this was to keep the probability of failure within an acceptable range.

Then you guys stated that the BB could be used as an interim faux controller by cycling the power on and off and allowing the battery to take the pump down 50%. And yet they shipped with instructions that clearly stated that cycling the battery on and off would reduce the battery life significantly.

What happened to this:

Originally posted by EcoTech Marine
Phil and everyone-

Aquarium pumps have become a very competitive market place these days and due to this we now chose not to reveal product information until units are ready to ship. Further, we chose not to ship product until there is no chance of problems. None of us want to go through the issues again that we had this time last year.

We are doing our best here and value each and every one of our customers: those that have been there since the very beginning and those that have just joined us recently.

What we will be releasing soon will exceed the expectations of everyone. There is a reason why no body has any idea what's coming and when: the reason is because it is just that cool and secret.

-Tim

The WWD is a joke Tim. They have turned my tank into a guitar. I can't hear them much in the tank room but upstairs, I can hear them ramping up and down. Why no night mode? Why did we all see a central controller two MACNAAs ago and what we get is a device that has to be line-of-site, within 10 feet, and if you walk between they lose communication? My expectations were in no way exceeded Tim.

[john rochon]

all I can say is WOW! looks like tank owners are doing the field testing for this powerhead and all its upgrades etc.. LOL
I've been following this product from day 1 and from what I see is at $400 a pop its a BAD investment.
everyone is ranting about customer service, to me the best customer service is one that you don't have to use !

whats the actual temp I wonder between the acrylic and the motor not the outside. I bet its hotter.

this looked to be a very promising product but threads like this are become more frequent
I was to buy 4 of these