Quarantine Procedure

[meschaefer]

I had posted this within a another thread, but thought I might get more help on this issue if I posted it as an independent thread.

I have always had problems with QT. Since I am just starting to stock a fairly large tank I wanted to "do it right" this time around and QT everything that went into the tank. I recently purchased two Lamarcks Angels, and I have lost the larger of the two.

I am a bit concerned about why I lost the larger one. Although I had less than 48 hours when he passed, he seemed to be doing much better than the smaller one and if one of them was not going to make it I thought it would have been the smaller.

Here was my procedure.

I used a a 20 gallon long glass tank, with a tunze nanostream for circulation and a small heater that I had lying around (I don't know the size). Also in the tank where three lengths of PVC (2 x 2" and 1 x 1.5") that where bundled together to give them a place to hide.

I filled the tank with water from my display tank. Before using the water I tested it for Ammonia and Nitrite both of which tested zero on two little fishes test kits. Salinity was 1.021. I acclimated both fish over an approximate three hour period, by placing each into a large container with the water from the LFS. Approximately every 15-20 minutes I added some water from my diplay tank. The fish then went into the QT along with the water that I acclimated them in. When all was done, the QT had about 15 gallons of water in it.

Fish seemed to be doing very well, so I tried feeding them a little mysis shrimp later that night and while they both chased down the food they promptly spit it back out. I then took a small net and scooped out most if not all of the food I had fed them.

When I went to bed that night the smaller of the two seemed a little sluggish, but the larger was actively swimming around the QT tank, same thing when I woke up the next morning. I checked on them early afternoon, the smaller fish still seemed sluggish but the larger one was "breathing" very heavily and appeared to be "panting". I once again tested the water. Ammonia was now at .25 and Nitrite was 0. I changed out 1/3 of the water in the QT. When I checked back 1/2 hour later, the larger of the two was laying on its side, there was no change in the smaller.

At this point I kind of freaked out and decided that the best thing to do was to place both fish into the display tank. As I said above I have always had problems with QT and in the past had abandoned them all together. I was trying to turn a new leaf with this tank, but when tragedy struck I fell back to a comfortable position. In retrospect this was probably not a good idea, but it what I did and I would like to avoid this in the future.

About an hour later they both appeared to be doing better. The smaller was more active and the larger was no longer lying on its side, but it still appeared to be breathing heavy. I checked on them multiple time throughout the day, without any improvement. When I checked on them before going to bed the though, the large one had died but the smaller one seemed no worse for wear. The next morning (yesterday) and last night he was out and about in the display tank and eagerly eating mysis and cyclopeze.

As stated above I completely forgot to check PH throughout this event. Otherwise I am not sure what it is that I did wrong.

Any thought would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Aadler]

Just to clarify, You acclimated them to your QT tank by using water from your display tank? If that is the case, and your display tank is at 1.025 and your QT is at 1.021 that could be a problem, altho i doubt it would kill the fish. I would be a little concerned about the ammonia spike, I always take a piece of live rock (5-10lber) from an established tank/refugium and put it in the QT tank.

[meschaefer]

The main display tank was at 1.021, remember that the fish where acclimated to the display tank when I first got them.

In terms of using a piece of live rock, it is one of the things I have thought about changing in my procedure. I have plenty of extra live rock in my sump, and it would be very easy to remove a piece to place in a QT. If anything developed with the fish, could the rock could be removed dried out and baked to kill off whatever was ailing the fish?

[fishyvet]

How long were they at the store before you bought them?
Were they eating well before you bought them?
What were the water parameters in the LFS water?
What was the ammonia level after the water change?

Unfortunately, you will probably never know for sure what killed your fish. It could have been a lot of things from poor collection technique to gill parasites.

[meschaefer]

Originally posted by fishyvet
How long were they at the store before you bought them?
Were they eating well before you bought them?
What were the water parameters in the LFS water?
What was the ammonia level after the water change?

Unfortunately, you will probably never know for sure what killed your fish. It could have been a lot of things from poor collection technique to gill parasites.

I watched both fish eat at the store, and I am not sure what the water parameters of the LFS where. I used to test it when I got a new fish, but stopped when I started using a 3 hour acclimation process.

The Ammonia level after the water change was not quantifiable on the test that I had. It had to be greater than zero, but was nowhere near the first color reading of 0.25.

While I realize that I may never know what happened to the fish, I want to make sure that my QT procedure is up to snuff. I have always had problems with QT, to the extent that I stopped using it on my old tank.

[Aadler]

3 hours is a bit long as well, except in extreme cases (water in bag is at 1.030+ and your tank is 1.023, etc, you can really do it in under 2 hours safly, I might say even a little less than that, maybe closer to 90 minutes. You have to consider what is more stressful, 1 degree temp change, .001 of salinity change or sitting in a 6x6 bag of water (or whatever the case may be). it should not really ever take a full 3 hours to acclimate a fish or coral properly.

[meschaefer]

Originally posted by Aadler
3 hours is a bit long as well, except in extreme cases (water in bag is at 1.030+ and your tank is 1.023, etc, you can really do it in under 2 hours safly, I might say even a little less than that, maybe closer to 90 minutes. You have to consider what is more stressful, 1 degree temp change, .001 of salinity change or sitting in a 6x6 bag of water (or whatever the case may be). it should not really ever take a full 3 hours to acclimate a fish or coral properly.

For clarification, so that you may understand my procedure .

I take the fish out the bag it came in and transfer the fish and the LFS water into a quart size Chinese soup container and place the soup container into an empty five gallon bucket. I then add water to the soup container every fifteen to twenty minutes so that it overflows into the bucket. When the bucket is filled enough so that the soup container is fully submerged in water, I transfer all of the water and the fish into the QT.

So far the suggestions are as follows:

1. Place a piece of LR into the QT with the fish.

2. Shorter acclimation period (by about 1/2).

[Cantonesefish]

What kind of filtration do you have on the QT tank?

[Cantonesefish]

What kind of filtration do you have on the QT tank?

[meschaefer]

none

[Aadler]

You dont actually need filtration in the QT, as long as you do water changes often, but having a nice cured piece of live rock in there helps process wastes, and helps the fish feel more comfortable (safe). I feel that this is the #1 issue when getting new fish, do as many things as you can to help them feel safe and thus removing stress.

[Aadler]

Also, i dont use nanostreams, so i dont know their gph, but possibly use somethign with less power, a stressed fish is a weak fish. Maybe a hangon the back powerfilter would be better, something under 100gph, but still gives good o2 exchange.

[Macimage]

I have both a hospital tank (10 gallon tank stored) and a 29 gallon quarantine tank. The quarantine tank is set up with small powerhead to provide oxygen but not too much stressful water movement, live rock, live sand, titanium heater, temperature monitor and small pc light that I leave off for the first few days.

With the live rock and sand, I don't need to do water changes and stress the fish. Also, the water stays good at 0 ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, etc.

I don't know how big your angels were, but I wouldn't quarantine anything much larger than a pair of clownfish in a 10 gallon. Used tanks are pretty cheap here on RC or in your local want ads, maybe $25 for a 29-40 gallon. Your observation that they both did better when put into your display tank is important because that would lead to the conclusion that the quarantine tank is not working (also the reason you posted for comments!).

As already mentioned, the quarantine period was a bit long. It would have been necessary for inverts such as snails, as they can not adapt to different salinity levels as well as fish and will drop dead if you do not acclimate them long enough.

Did the temperature in the 5 gallon bucket match the quarantine tank when you added them to it? It's been my experience, that sometimes the bucket can get cold. (just throwing out everything I can think of here).

You may want to make sure that your heater is not giving off any stray voltage and that it is maintaining the appropriate temperature ("small heater that I had lying around") in the quarantine tank.

Just a few suggestions. It could also be where you purchase your fish. If this continually happens, ie fish die after good quarantine, perhaps your lfs is purchasing cheap cyanide caught fish and you may want to consider ordering from Dr. Fosters & Smith, as they have a 14 day live arrival guarantee and do sell good fish. Although you will have to pay for the shipping, if you save in not getting dying fish, it would actually save you money and heartache in the long run.

Hope these random thoughts help.
Joyce

[meschaefer]

Joyce, thanks for the input.

To address some of your observations and thoughts.

Although the heater was a "small heater I had lying around" I am pretty confident that it is in good working order. What I mean by lying around is that it wasn't presently being used, other wise it was fairly new. I had picked it up to heat a small holding tank when my last system crashed after I had a small fire in my house a couple of months ago. That being said, i will double check the heater to be sure.

The Quarantine tank was a 20 gallon long ( not a 10 gallon). I have multiple excess tanks to choose from and chose that one based upon the size of the fish. Maybe I chose wrong. The larger fish was about 3.5 inches not including the caudal fin, and the smaller was maybe just shy of 3 inches(sans caudal fin).

It very well could have been where I purchased the fish from, then again maybe not. I am trying to think, but I don't know that I had purchased from them before. Either way, they are not a place that I usually purchase fish from. I happened to be in the general vicinity of the place and new that, at the least, they always had a very large selection of fish so i decided to detour on my way home.

I am somewhat lucky as I have quite a few people that I deal with in my area, who bring in top notch stuff. The flip side to that is that somebody like Drs. F&S are not really an option for me. My work schedule is such that I will never be able to guarantee that I could be home for delivery and having them delivered to my place of business is not an option.

I have plenty of room, as i have a rather large fish room behind the tank, and am leaning toward the option of setting up another tank permantly for QT procedure.

Thanks for the help, any more suggestions and comments are appreciated.

[Macimage]

Hi Matt,

Yes, I was sure most of those observations were probably covered, but I wanted to throw out everything I could think of.

Yes, sorry I missed the 20 gallon long. That should have been fine.

A bigger quarantine tank is still a good idea. I'd like a 40 or 50. Since you are justs stocking your tank, it would probably be a good idea to get a bigger one. You could even sell it when you are finished stocking the 220. If you want to a fish such as a tang, you really will need a larger quarantine, as they need it and also, you really don't want to add a tang without qt.

No need to go mail order if you have good stores locally. Some reefers live in areas with one poor store and don't have that option. Here in S. Calif. we also have a good selection.

I can't think of anything else, as it sounds like you have all your bases covered. I think the most important part is that the smaller angel was not doing well in your qt and improved in your display tank. Of course, once you have valuable quarantined fish in your display, you don't want to be dumping new fish not doing well in qt into the display.

Keep us posted as to how the second angel is doing.

Joyce

[meschaefer]

The second angel is doing fantastic. He is alone, so he has the run of the tank and is very active. He has a lot room to stretch out in. I have been feeding him a little bit of cycoplpese and myssid shrimp thee times a day and he is eating heartily.

[Macimage]

That's great!

Joyce

[merlin_451]

Here's a good article I just read that should help you out.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

It sounds like your lack of filtration and the resulting ammonia spike is what killed your large angel. Most of the QT tanks I have seen use a sponge filter for biological and a small powerhead for gas exchange. keep the sponge in your displays sump to keep it biologically active till you need it for your QT.

Merlin

[SDguy]

Originally posted by Aadler
You dont actually need filtration in the QT

I disagree with this. Especially with new fish, you are bound to get excess/uneaten food in the tank. I feel a filter on a QT tank (not "hospital") to provide biological, chemical, and/or mechanical filtration is a must.

[Neptune777]

Originally posted by SDguy
I disagree with this. Especially with new fish, you are bound to get excess/uneaten food in the tank. I feel a filter on a QT tank (not "hospital") to provide biological, chemical, and/or mechanical filtration is a must.

I agree with SD 100%. Filtration on a Qt is a must.

Also, fish will often perish in QT due to incoming parasites or disease. Which obviously is why we run a QT...so as not to expose your healthy fish to these dangers.

With Angels it is a common situation for them to be infested with Flukes (Gill) when they come in. All QT's should have extra oxygenation via a air pump/airstone or a skimmer to help ease the stress on new fish. Prophylactic treatment on Angels for these pests is recommended IMO.

[John Dawe]

When you get a new fish, you should place it and the water it came in into a empty container and then add water slowly to acclamate it for up to several hours. When you transfer the fish into the quarantine tank, DO NOT transfer any of the water.
I always use fresh salt water in the QT and a SeaChem Ammonia Alert and some type of biofilter (cellpore) that was in the main tank. If you don't use a biofilter, do a 90% water change 1 or 2 times a day. I also would use a air stone or a very small powerhead, you don't want the fish to use a lot of energy swimming against the current, the more energy the fish uses the more food it will reqire.

This is what I posted on RC in the past.
This is what I do: 1) when fish arrive, place in bucket and give a 45 minute formulin bath. The place in a small tank 10 - 15 gallons (makes it easier to dose the meds) and lower the salinity to 1.09 to 1.15 over several days. For the first 3 - 4 days add metronidazole, full dose each day, I do a 90% water change each day, since the QT tank does not have a biofilter or has a small piece of cellpore from another tank.
After 3 to 4 days stop the metronidazole, give a formulin bath again and start prazipro for 5 days. Then, move the fish up to 29 g and add a biofilter (cellpore from another tank). Keep at low salinity for a total of at least 3 weeks then gradually raise it up over several days. There is always a seachem ammonia alert on the tank so I do not have to test the water for ammonia, may have to change it twice a day in the smaller tank.
As far as feeding, feed the fish a little bit several times a day (3-6 times) or every time you check on it.

I have also gone back to using copper on all fish for 3 weeks, just to be safe.
I do this for the $20 and the $500+ fish, it works