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#76
10/31/2007, 11:08 AM
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I think some of the items in this hobby should be priced more appropriately. Take a skimmer, and acrylic box for hundreds/thousands of dollars it's crazy. Some don't even include a pump. I think the only piece of equipment I own that I thought was priced appropriately is the Phosphate reactor. |
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#77
10/31/2007, 02:22 PM
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Its a small market, so its low volume, high margin. Those nifty 'high end' skimmers you see coming in from overseas that cost $1000 are most likely only $500 at the distributor. But since we, as hobbyists, arent demanding skimmers in massive amounts, the margin needs to be higher for the maker and sellers to stay afloat.
They are priced appropriately when you take this into consideration. When you start making 'specialty' pumps and their like for skimmers, propellers, etc... then you are asking a mfg for a custom wound/made pump... and rather than making them in lots of 5000 or so, you might be asking for lots of 100 or 200. So smaller lots, AND you have to cover extensive R&D for just this one model. Even modifying an existing pump (like what Klaus does) racks up cost fast... CNC'ing parts costs alot, and the alternative of getting parts injection molded doesnt make alot of sense unless you are getting massive numbers made. You want to bring the costs down? Well, then you need to get every person you know to own a reef tank.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#78
10/31/2007, 07:12 PM
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I don't buy that.
The maxijet is in the same small market and just as good of a product as most pumps. Yet they still manage to keep the price ridiculously low compared to tunze and ecotech. I can actually see the price of the vortech right now since it's still relatively new in development so the premium price is to be expected. But tunze, where's the price drop? |
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#79
10/31/2007, 08:01 PM
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Comparing a Maxi-jet to a Tunze/VT is like comparing a map to GPS. Both will give you directions, but.........
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I refrain from using the word "hobby". You don't refer to your dog or cat as a "hobby." |
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#82
10/31/2007, 08:28 PM
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__________________
I refrain from using the word "hobby". You don't refer to your dog or cat as a "hobby." |
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#83
10/31/2007, 08:40 PM
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Tunze streams... well... they are for saltwater only, and just reefs at that. No other tank but a reef needs a pump that can move 5000gph and have a speed/wave controller. Its a pretty narrow market segment compared to aquariums as a whole. So no, the Maxi-Jet and the Tunze are not in the same market. The maxi-jet most likely sells 20x as much as the Tunze. I dont know the exact numbers, as I know reefing has grown in the past decade, but I believe saltwater as a whole is still less than 10% of the entire aquarium trade. And considering its the most expensive segment of the aquarium trade... it shouldnt be a shocker that we pay more for our equipment.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#84
11/01/2007, 08:05 AM
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There's no question about that. But I can buy a PC for less then the cost of one. So saying that it's because of the DC voltage controllers, circuit boards and microprocessor doesn't make sense to me. |
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#85
11/01/2007, 08:37 AM
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ive been on this forum going on three years and the tunze debate has been thier since i started ....
too expensive.. yet.. when one gets on the used forum they last maybe a day or two and the depreciation is minimal. i have used the maxijet mods and am not really impressed with them. i now have tunzes and see what people mean when they say them move the water and are reliable. i believe with the cost of a tunze comes the warranty.
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Dont yah just love LFS ...'That sohal would look lovely in that 10 gallon you were looking at. All you need is a skilter filter some salt and you can take her home tonight..... |
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#86
11/01/2007, 08:54 AM
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do you beleive that it is fair to compare a multi billion dollar industry to one that is 1/1,000,000 th the size? do you beleive the resources available to the computer industry are comparable to that of aquarium pumps?
__________________
75 AGA Mixed Reef 2" SB 2x250W HQI Ice Cap Controlled RS 80 Promo Vortech WWD Tunze 6025 Eheim 1260 Return DIY Auto Top off 8G Fuge aqua uv 15w |
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#87
11/01/2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
 Anyway back to the discussion of which is actually better
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#88
11/01/2007, 09:17 AM
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well acutally you might be partially right...but that is why a pump costs as much as a computer.
__________________
75 AGA Mixed Reef 2" SB 2x250W HQI Ice Cap Controlled RS 80 Promo Vortech WWD Tunze 6025 Eheim 1260 Return DIY Auto Top off 8G Fuge aqua uv 15w |
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#89
11/02/2007, 05:01 PM
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I'm planning on placing the nanos in pairs of 2 across from eachother and about 1 or 2 ft apart (middle to front of the tank) and mount them from the eurobrace, so they'll be about 2 inches below the water level. My question is this... Since the depth of the tank is 3 ft, if I point them somewhat downwards, would I get enough "stirring action" and some wave action? I've read that I'll need the sub second intensity interval on the nanos for the depth that I have and only 4 ft across. I think the total flow should be fine for my 300G, considering that I also have a closed loop (spray bar driven by a mag18 at 2 ft head pressure), and 2 maxijets (modded) pointing downwards in the back of the tank and 3 more 6025 nanos pointing in different directions about 2 ft down in the tank.
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...You are free... because of the BRAVE... |
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#90
11/02/2007, 05:56 PM
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That close to the surface I think they'll vortex air down and fill your tank with bubbles. I have to keep mine ~6" below the water surface for that reason.
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Click the "little red house" in this message's header to visit my reef blog. |
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#91
11/02/2007, 08:29 PM
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...You are free... because of the BRAVE... |
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#92
11/04/2007, 04:15 PM
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Mine are less than an inch from the surface with no vortex. I had to turn them on their sides with the bracket vertical rather than horizontal. The cord is also neatly out of sight.
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"Who am we really and how do I talk about myselves?" -Gregory B. |
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#93
11/06/2007, 10:03 AM
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I have botha Vortech and a Tunze 6000.
I love the vortech! And my hat goes off to its creator's, they have developed a revolutionary product in a very small time frame. But, it is my final opinion that if fac3ed with the decision of the two, I'd buy the tunze. The stalling on the vortech really bugs, especially when your on vacation. Its an amzing product, but for the price id go with the tunze for now. Just better tested over time. However I have no doubt from their progress allready, that vortech will develop into the best product on the mkt one day.
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If it it's not broken, don't fix it. |
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#94
11/06/2007, 02:10 PM
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It pains me to have to admit this but I used to be an avid Tunze fannatic but I am starting to really like the Vortechs based on hands on experience. I currently run all Tunze products on my tank only because I am waiting for the 1" Vortechs to come out but I have seen the vortech in action on several different setups and I think they are "becoming" a better all around product.
My reasoning for actually considering the Vortech is: 1. The Vortech as a stand alone pump with the WWD is more versatile than any of the tunze's including the wavebox and is actually cheaper. When you start comparing the products a single Vortech w/ the WWD can do everything that a 6101 and wavebox can do but with more control functions. You basically get a wavebox and 6101 with the Vortech. 2. The Vortech w/ WWD is cheaper than the comparable 6101 w/ multicontroller and the wavebox by $30-$40. The pricing doesn't benefit tunze until you start looking at more than 3 powerheads. 3. Functionality - The thing that has surprised me the most about the WWD is the wave it can create in a tank. Add this to the other flow patterns it creates put it above the Tunze especially in the wider thanks that seem to becoming more and more common in the reef keeping hobby. From what I have seen the Tunze would only out perform the Vortech in longer more narrow tanks where flow intensity is more important. On a side note: Several people have noted about needed additional streams when using a wavebox. This is true but the same thing can be said about the Vortech. In either case the wave being generated will keep small particles suspended in the water column but it there is nothing that directs the debris toward your overflow so additional flow is needed to move the particles out of the tank. 4. Reliability - Currently, Tunze is a more reliable product but show me any other new technology and you will see the same growing pains that the Vortech is experiencing. 5. Customer Service - This is where the biggest gap excists between the two. I agree that with IC's partnership the Vortech has a promising future but this issue with people who already have the pumps not getting their pre-ordered WWD's before new customers is not was not a good move. I don't think it will really hurt their bottom line but you really have to question their motives ($$$) when they decide to ship the new controllers with new pumps to the retail market when they have pre existing orders in hand and have had for several months. With all this being said, I plan on eventually changing out my (4) tunze 6100's with (4) Vortech's and run them with my two waveboxes. I feel the Vortech's are a better suited pump for my tank. |
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#95
11/07/2007, 01:32 PM
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I've used Stream pumps from nano to large, as well as the wavebox. I've always been happy with Tunze and the awesome customer service I've received on multiple occasions (thanks Roger).
I bought a Vortech yesterday for my 120g sps system to see what it was about as you don't really know unless you try it yourself. Regardless of any other factors, I would say this pump has a unique niche. It would seem the flow is tank-wide from end to end, front to back yet my fine sand doesn't blow around but it's evident water is blow over the sand surface too as I can see the grains "shaking". The water surface shows current swirls everywhere which is nice as it again affirms flow throughout the whole tank length. The wireless wave device seems neat although I really haven't played with the modes yet. Hopefully these pumps will hold up long term and prove to be a quality product. Even though half the pump sits outside the tank, I really like the minimal intrusion on the inside, as a 120g system really isn't that big, and I like that there are no power cords going up and over the top of the tank wall. I don't think a clear winner will be declared regarding Streams vs. Vortech because tank needs vary so much. |
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