To skim or not to skim, that is the question

[matttaylor]

Lets keep this civil. What are your views on skimming? Over do it, use enough to get by or none at all?

I'll start... On my softie garden, no skimming. Mostly out of crappy tank design, but i feel that if you maintain water quality that suits your wards, then there is no need for the extra expence. Would i run a skimmer? Yes, if i could design / find one that could be used on my tank. However, I have never had one on this tank and i don't see a need.

[jtarmitage]

Absolutely skim, and overskim if possible.... Why? Reduces the amount of labor REQUIRED to maintain parameters. If you don't mind the additional labor, then why bother skimming. Lately my husbandry skills and dedication have picked up, thanks in no small part to frags from Tim (TFP), but the protein skimmer provides insurance and flexibility. Not a requirement, but well worth it to me. I can always add things like trace elements back to the system, but the problem is getting things out of the system that shouldn't be there, which is exactly what the skimmer is there for. Long winded Yes, overskim if possible answer.

[robertloop]

Hi Matt,

I vote for the skimmer. It adds alot of oxygen to the tank and it also helps off-gas Co2 from my CA reactor. (both are plumbed in to the sump.) I also like the obvious benefit of nutrient/fish waste export. I usually have to breath out of my mouth while cleaning the collection cup and cant belive that the "stench juice" was once in my water.

Happy reefing

--edit---

I forgot to add.. The natrual ocean has thousands of protien skimmers too. Every beach has a frothy shore line.

[bobbyblank]

I run a small backpak with a maxi1200. One week, it will pull out a ton of good skimmate, some weeks, it dont. Not very stable skimmer, but it does an O.K. job of pulling gunk. I ran my tank skimmerless for about 2 months....Tank was fine, but i would stick with a skimmer for sure. I prefer a skimmer and would run a euroreef if i had the cash, but ANY skimmer is better IMO. Just seeing some of the sh** that comes out of the skimmate cup on my bakpak is enough to make you squeeme. If thats not enough, try smelling it . But a skimmerless tank is do-able for sure. Matt has done a great job and his tank is beautiful, lots of hungry fish, and guess what....no skimmer . Kudos matt!!

[airinhere]

I run all my tanks skimmerless.

I put some thought into the systems to acomplish similar tasks by other means.

And I do believe that skimmers would help keep my tanks cleaner.

I just prefer to have the microfauna (both good and bad) that would otherwise be removed by skimming.

[kevin95695]

I see the skimmate I dump and think: Good thing that's not in my tank anymore...

[matttaylor]

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

Pros:
Newbie buffer
SPS helper
Crap remover

Cons:
Trace element remover
Filter feeder food remover
Softie food remover
Less attention to water quality
Provides a false sense of security
Did i mention less attention to water quality?

Look i'm not knocking anyone, in my opinion if you have the resources to use a skimmer, then do it. However i cant stress the importance of adding essential elements to the water and feeding your corals if you use a skimmer. I feed my corals by stirring up the sand and adding micro-vert daily. I'd love to use a skimmer, but due to tank design i can't. With that being said i use carbon like it's going out of style.

If i had the money i'd like to see the difference between skimming and the use of activated carbon. Maybe someone with the resources could help us with this.

[MrMikeB]

I can argue both sides of the isle on this one, civilly of course. I think we strive to reproduce the habitat of a rather complex ecosystem and due to practical limitations need to resort to skimmers and other technologies to reproduce water parameters in proximity to what our creatures are used to. So if your tank species are primarily 'clean' and/or deep water where there is not much in the way of excess nutrients or other particles readily available in the water, you would do well with a skimmer, whereas 'dirty water' corals and other species in shallower depths with lots of surge churning up the bottom would probably fare better without heavy skimming.

I think it comes down to understanding more about where your species come from and what the conditions they are used to living in, then using the tools at our disposal to reproduce those conditions as much as possible. As a new diver, I have a new-found perspective on these things seeing first hand where some of our tank friends come from. There are also aesthetic reasons skimming is important - nobody seems to enjoy looking at a murky tank.

Personally, I use a skimmer on all my systems, to what degree is dependent on the inhabitants and my goals for that particular setup.

[matttaylor]

^ Good points Mike, And i value your opinion. Lets keep this going people. I'd like to hear from all MARS members, and possibly, if theres any interest open this up to a meeting topic.

[bored4long]

Matt, I understand most of your points and they seem logical. Can you expand on your 'less attention to water quality' detail. Unless, I misunderstand the point, it seems that should be in the Pro category.

Thanks.

[pbetito]

The bigger and more complex the system is, the more there is a need to skim IMHO. I have seen some tanks that noone touched in like 6 months and the LPS in them were fine. Mike and I have taken down systems where I was literally afraid to put my hands in the water and the softies and LPS were still alive and well. As long as a tank is established those corals are super easy to keep and don't require hardly anything. I have seen people keep them with lighting that resembles garage flourescents. When it comes to anems, SPS, and hard to keep LPS that is a different story. I agree that skimming requires trace minerals to be put back in but the 2 part B ionic along with a little bit more is easy enough to dose occasionally to take care of that problem. I just think to what the sharpest and cleanest tanks I have personally seen run and they all get the CRAP skimmed out of them...LITERALLY.(Tanks: Karl,Tim,Pam...ect ect) That being said I run an H&S because I felt that the Euroreef wasn't strong enough.

I know in this hobby there is more than one way to skin a cat... but it seems to me a good skimmer is like a REALLY sharp knife.

[jtarmitage]

Matt, come take a look at the corals you traded me. Then decide, was this the lack of skimmer, or the lights that made the difference!!!! They are no longer the same corals.

[TeeLapia]

4 letters... TOTM. Or even 5 for that matter NTOTM... Though skimmerless or going with a skimmer is highly debated, we need extra filtration. The skimmer is IMO like the motor in a car. Yes, you can get somewhere but the stronger the motor... you get the point... Even at public aquariums they run skimmers. I can say it's safe to say all living things release some sort of waste, and that the skimmer helps remove that matter from your system. Pros or Cons a good skimmer is a good investment.
So YES to skim, and don't forget..... Dilution is the solution to polution.

[kdblove_99]

Originally posted by TeeLapia
4 letters... TOTM. Or even 5 for that matter NTOTM... Though skimmerless or going with a skimmer is highly debated, we need extra filtration. The skimmer is IMO like the motor in a car. Yes, you can get somewhere but the stronger the motor... you get the point... Even at public aquariums they run skimmers. I can say it's safe to say all living things release some sort of waste, and that the skimmer helps remove that matter from your system. Pros or Cons a good skimmer is a good investment.
So YES to skim, and don't forget..... Dilution is the solution to polution.

I comepletly agree with this!^


I know Tony from aquaworld is really into skimmerless

[MrMikeB]

I don't necessarily think the skimmer as the motor for our reef systems - this seems to place undue credit on their importance IMO. Although I think skimmers can be important, I think there is a lot of emphasis placed on them as critical when there are other alternatives and definitely some cons to using them. The ocean is not a clean place to live in, and lets look at some of the primary reasons we use a skimmer. Primarily for quick removal of excess nutrients and waste products in the water - but why? So they do not go through the nitrification process ending up as excess nitrates, phosphates, etc. that are bad for most of our watery friends.

But there are other ways to remove the excess end products of nitrification that have been tried and trued, such as deep sand beds, nitrate sponges, carbon, Iron Oxide, clams, refugiums with nitrate or and phosphate absorbing livestock, increased water changes, etc. Personally I feel skimmers are great devices for most of us, but on certain filter feeders and other reef specimens that enjoy prolonged particle and nutrient suspension for feeding, I would not be so quick to assume that skimmers are always a necessary thing to have. Fish poop can be a good thing for many reef inhabitants! And when you do run them, more might not always be better.

Just an idea to consider...

[TeeLapia]

Yes all valid points. But when you compare the ocean to our aquarium. You are comparing millions of gallons to the very little 100 or so you have to contain. The ocean is not a clean place, but yet contains millions of gallons, and who knows the turnover over rate as well. The ocean is quite unique, which is why we are so addicted.

I am not primarily emphasizing a skimmer as a main unit, but the question was asked and we answered. A car cannot start without a battery. My point was filtration (skimmer) is important, but needs everything else in order for it to be beneficial. Like a battery to a motor, etc.

There are alternative measures, they do work. Yet those alternative measures also are highly debated. You can go completely mechanical in a reef system vs. natural and debate that all day. Poop is a good thing yes, too much, no. But to skim IMO is a must. This helps keep your system balanced, and aids in the everyday fight of chemicals in the reef.

Again, all opinions.

[matttaylor]

Jeremy it could be both lights and skimming. I do know that your watts per gallons ratio is alot higher than mine. And in my opinion that is the deciding factor. I also had mostly softies in my tank and the chemical warfare could have caused it as well.

I also feel that softies in general like the dirty water that not running a skimmer provides. The growth of my leathers has been amazing! I do however run a DSB and carbon to help remove some of the poop from the water column.

To each his own, what works for me won't work for someone else. This is one of the reasons that this hobby is so much fun.

Edit: Mark i almost forgot about your question. Less attention to water quality could have gone either way. As a pro it would have ment less work involved. I put it in the con side because reefers will go out buy a monster expensive skimmer and assume that since they are getting every single nasty out of the tank, they no longer have to pay attention to water quality. It is a false sence of security. With that being said i know none of us would do that, but IT DOES HAPPEN.

[robertloop]

I would like to point out that tank of the month always seems to have a skimmer. Check out the monster in this months! If skimmers are indeed as bad as some consider for removing beneficial nutrients..... Then how did this guy get those results with that holygrail of skimmers?

[matttaylor]

In most cases Robert, when someone has that large of a skimmer they are putting additives in their tank a lot more than the average person.

Good / Bad, i don't know. And lets not forget that i'm not saying they aren't needed. I would use one if i could find one that fit the end of my tank. But i'm playing devils advocate here, and pointing out flaws inherant with skimmers.

[MrMikeB]

Great discussion all! I enjoy seeing all the different experiences and perspectives, because really, there is no one size fits all answer no matter how you look at it. Keep the ideas coming!

[jimdogg187]

I'm all for skimmers. IME, you can run a perfectly healthy tank w/out one, but I feel that they are very benneficial to the tank inhabitants, as well as the care giver. They remove dissoveld organic compounds before they enter the nitrogen cycle and add oxigen to the water.

Do you need one? No. You can run a tank just fine w/out one. But you are much better off running your tank with one.

But its improtan to buy one that is affective at its job. There is nothing worse than a POS skimmer that doesn't work.

If you're on a budget, DAS and Reef-octopus

If you want something really nice, H&S, Deltec and Euroreef "RC" models. I have owned both an H&S A150 and several ER's. I'm thinking about getting another H&S in the future, but my current ER RC180 is a killer skimmer. As long as the skimmer has an Eheim pump, there really is not much of a difference.

Jim

[casalt]

The waste that comes out can't be good for anybody, I feel minw acts as a bufffer. I have a light load in my tank, hopefully if I make a mistake the sump and eveything in it will lessen my screwup. If anything its a comfort level, for keeping evrything in an enclosed system. Every frag I got at the swap has already grown. Matt you said you would use if you could find one that fit your setup, what about a DIY skimmer.

[matttaylor]

I've thought about a DIY and may infact build one soon. I just have to get my butt in gear and design one. The biggest challenge for my tank is the 2" glass brace on the end that prevents a HOB skimmer from working.

On my 60 reef i had about 3 years ago i built a skimmer that worked really well. The only problem with it was the fact i never took the time to seal it properly and it always leaked a little.

[racrumrine]

I think it would be nice to set up a skimmerless system based on sponges like Steve Tyree. http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/

He seems to do pretty well with SPS corals.

Best of luck,

Roy

[tfp]

ditto what jimdogg said.

it all depends on what you want to keep. i've learned that my hammers, frogspawn, chalices and yumas are doing really well in my sps-geared tank which is weird?