Money down the drain??? - Page 2

cd77 · #26 09/11/2007, 05:05 PM

This is an interesting thread, made me do some research on water too..

Your profile says you have a 75 gallon tank, and you also mentioned a 30 gallon tank. Ok, so lets say you're in a situation where you're doing 10% water changes weekly on 105 gallons -- 10.5 gallons per week -- and lets just say for argument purposes that you're evaporating 1 gallon/day -- ok, so about 18 gallons per week.

Google my facts here, or check with the American water works assoc --

Have you checked your pipes lately? Got any drips? A faucet with a medium leak can cost you 18 gallons per week.

How long do you shower for? Five minutes? There goes up to 25 gallons of water depending. Skip a shower once a week and your good on the money.

Last -- have you actually calculated how much your water costs? I'm not in the same location as you, but I'm charged a little less than 1.8 cents per cubic foot -- or (if my math is right) about $2.40 per 1,000 gallons. So, if I were maintaining 105 gallons I'd lose two dollars and forty cents for more than a weeks worth of topoff water and weekly water changes. Of-course, I didn't include tax and base charges...

cd77 · #27 09/11/2007, 06:07 PM

Oops.. did I say "weeks worth" of topoff/water changes? I meant a YEARS worth. And I'm considering that you're losing 50% to waste water, if you're losing two thirds (which is about what I get with my RO setup) then you're losing almost 5 bucks per year. Your rates may vary though...

kathainbowen · #28 09/11/2007, 06:29 PM

Now, I had remembered right for once the events in another part of RC. In Responsible Reefkeeping this was discussed in the topic Gray Water. Various suggestions were made for what to do with "gray" water (the refuse water from your RO), but it seemed that the most common suggestions were using it for watering plants while also employing techniques for conserving water around the house. This including the popular "bricks-in-the-toilet" tank trick (although, many people will discourage this as they say it puts harmful impurities in the water which can ruin plumbing- so, if you're really cheap, you can fill a plastic water bottle with that gray water!).

If you're interested in conservation and increasing water, you can find a list of 49 ways to save water at American Water and Energy Savers that are just simple things, like using food dye in your toilet tank to test for leaks.

wooden_reefer · #29 09/11/2007, 06:46 PM

Even in a house whose plumbing is very old and the pipes have a lot of deposits, the RO unit will still work fine because the flow rate is so low. Frictional losses is highly dependent on flow velocity.

The point is that it is likely OK to route the wastewater tubing rather far to where the plants are without greatly reducing the efficency of the RO.

kathainbowen · #30 09/11/2007, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wooden_reefer
Even in a house whose plumbing is very old and the pipes have a lot of deposits, the RO unit will still work fine because the flow rate is so low. Frictional losses is highly dependent on flow velocity.

The point is that it is likely OK to route the wastewater tubing rather far to where the plants are without greatly reducing the efficency of the RO.

.... I meant to use the filled bottles with gray water as a sort of "water dam" to keep the toilet tank from filling up more than necessary each time. They say that the bricks leech excess deposits (*at least, this is one of those urban legends that I can neither confirm nor deny- my plumbing knowledge extends only to fish tanks and not to home plumbing, sorry). It's just a quick, dirty solution to avoid that. Although, using water-bottles, I had also heard of people using this as a sort of "ghetto-cooler" by either chilling or freezing the gray water and wrapping it up in a towel.

Anywho, running a watering system for plants is pretty easy. You can either use a light pump (*if it's a smaller system, or gravity feed for a larger system)...... or there's always a watering can (*mine's all antique looking! So cute!)

Artisan Corals · #31 09/12/2007, 03:32 PM

The higher quality de-ionizers (Kati Ani) do not use disposable cartridges. You inexpensively regenerate the resins over and over again. The cost per gallon is actually much lower than RO systems and no waste water.

agent007 · #32 09/15/2007, 11:16 PM

Some great info here. Tanks.

Its not that I'm cheap, at least I don't think I am, it just a mental thing. I hate to conciously waste things. Don't get me wrong ,there is some concern about how much the waste would actually cost me.

One thing I did not do, which made complete sense, was what cd77 did. Calculate the cost. I just did that and found, as did cd77, it would cost a mere few cents for the 30gal of waste water. Most of which I would conscientiously use to water the plants or dump in the washing machine (another nice idea - but I'll have to check with the wife).

The other thing that I did not do, which was suggested earlier in this thread, was to check my water quality. Perhaps I don't need an RO/DI system after all? No such luck. TDS straight from the tap measures ~170. TDS from my handy-dandy Culligan filter... ~210!!! This is a fews days after changing the filter

Bottomline: I need a RO/DI system. It will not cost me much - mentally or monetery wise. I'm also going to get a system with a stage before the DI so that I can use it to produce drinking water. No more bottled water from the stores (another savings).

agent007 · #33 09/15/2007, 11:23 PM

Does anyone see any issues with me setting up the system down in my basement and running tubing upstairs to kitchen for the drinking water?
Any concerns about pressure loss? Is there maximum recommended length of tubing that can be run from the system?

cd77 · #34 09/15/2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agent007
Does anyone see any issues with me setting up the system down in my basement and running tubing upstairs to kitchen for the drinking water?
Any concerns about pressure loss? Is there maximum recommended length of tubing that can be run from the system?

I'm not an expert on this, but it's not the amount of tubing more so much as the height you'll be pumping the water. Since it's not a cheap pump we're talking about here and you've got constant pressure, I don't see a problem -- the line is cheap ($10 for 50 feet from F&S at https://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...fm?pcatid=5607)) Test it out first if you're concerned by running it up the basement stairs or something.

Your waste water does get recycled btw (uh, I think there is a water engineer on this forum that can tell you if I'm wrong or what the efficiency of that would be if by some miracle I'm actually right) -- if your major concern is that your local firefighter won't be able to put out a blaze while you're making a batch of saltwater or topping off, I really wouldn't be too concerned.

agent007 · #35 09/16/2007, 12:10 AM

What I meant was, will there be enough pressure from the RO/DI system to feed the 5 gal water tank I want to put under the upstairs kitchen sink?

I was under the impression I would not need a pump.

cd77 · #36 09/16/2007, 12:26 AM

*bump* for someone who can answer this definitively.

(I don't think you will -- the pressure will be from your faucet which I would imagine is more or less constant, and plenty enough to pump water up 12-20 feet with ease -- but I've never done this, I don't know the mechanics of an RO/DI unit, and I haven't taken a physics course in years)

Time for me to step aside from this thread -- the topic of the thread was "money down the drain???" and I just wanted to help clarify how much (or rather little) money we're talking about here

Best of luck, I'm positive someone here can help you through this! I wish I had a basement -- I'd dig myself into a nice chunk of debt setting up a plenum, a larger fuge, and have room for all kinds of cool new toys to play with

down and outman · #37 09/16/2007, 09:30 AM

Typical water rates are $2 - $4 per thousand gallons. Wasting 30 gals a week, it would take 33 weeks to waste 1,000 gals. Your waste treatment plant needs a certain amount of clean water to dilute the waste. Water is never really wasted. It will be returned back to nature to run thru the cycle of evaporation, rain, runoff, gathering into bodies of water, just to flow back to the oceans. A bigger waste is to watch sprinkler systems run in the rain! I really wouldn't worry about it.

PJsStuff · #38 09/16/2007, 10:35 AM

I run my waste water out to the pond to keep it full.

agent007 · #39 09/16/2007, 02:47 PM

I am feeling a lot better about getting the filter system.
This site is better than therapy

Vin7250 · #40 09/17/2007, 01:53 PM

every time you make 1 gallon of water 10 fishies die in the ocean!!! think about that the next time you have to fill yhour 100 gallon system!!!!

------------------------------Just kidding!!!!!

ccscscpc · #41 09/17/2007, 03:09 PM

bottle it and sell it. It has to be better than the Aquafina they are selling as "purified water".

agent007 · #42 10/28/2007, 06:01 PM

Quick update: I installed my RO/DI system. I've got RO to the kitchen sink faucet and the refridgerator. DI runs down to the basement into a storage bin. I got the setup from Air, Water and Ice. Had to tell you because the setup was so easy. I spent most of my time routing the tubing so nobody could see them.

TDS readings:
RO: 27
DI: 0 (yes that's a zero

)

One question, my DI storage is a 32gal rubbermaid bin (new and clean).
Do I need to put a pump in the bin to circulate the water so it doesn't go stale? With a TDS reading of zero, I don't think there much in there that will foul the water while it's in storage but I just want to be sure.

Also, to get the water out I will be using a pump. Can I leave that pump in the bin when not in use?

kysard1 · #43 10/28/2007, 06:21 PM

before you spend money on an RO/DI do a lot of research. Some water is basically not treatable with RO/DI. Have your water tested to find out what is in it first also find out your water pressure.

Shagsbeard · #44 10/28/2007, 06:24 PM

No one has suggested filling your toliets with it? wow. That's the first thing I'd do. Sure, it's work and you wont always do it, but that's one of the main uses of water in a house. Just turn off the valve to the toilet and fill it up after each flush. If you're handy you could rig a pump to pump the water to the toliet.

agent007 · #45 10/28/2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kysard1
before you spend money on an RO/DI do a lot of research. Some water is basically not treatable with RO/DI. Have your water tested to find out what is in it first also find out your water pressure.

Already tested. Did research. Already installed system. Did you checkout my the new TDS reading? Captain, she's down to zero

Shagsbeard? The toilet aint broke so I'm leaving that alone

Playa-1 · #46 10/29/2007, 03:26 AM

Have you ever checked your water meter to see how many gallons you used in a month?

demonsp · #47 10/29/2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agent007
Already tested. Did research. Already installed system. Did you checkout my the new TDS reading? Captain, she's down to zero

Shagsbeard? The toilet aint broke so I'm leaving that alone

OMG , dont get me started . Its irisponseable reefkeeping to say that anybodys tap water is untreatable. Look here.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water4maruse.htm

kysard1 · #48 10/29/2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by demonsp
OMG , dont get me started . Its irisponseable reefkeeping to say that anybodys tap water is untreatable. Look here.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water4maruse.htm

I have seen wells with water that is not pratical to treat. Fuel Oil contamination which would exhaust a carbon block in a few days.
CO2 concentrations so high that DI resin is exhausted in a few gallons. Or a combination like 300 ppm CO2 and 60 ppm NO3. You can't treat water like that with just an RO/DI. A lot of people on wells have non-potable water. There are many examples where RO and/or DI is not practical.

Artisan Corals · #49 10/29/2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by agent007
Quick update: I installed my RO/DI system. I've got RO to the kitchen sink faucet and the refridgerator. DI runs down to the basement into a storage bin. I got the setup from Air, Water and Ice. Had to tell you because the setup was so easy. I spent most of my time routing the tubing so nobody could see them.

TDS readings:
RO: 27
DI: 0 (yes that's a zero )

One question, my DI storage is a 32gal rubbermaid bin (new and clean).
Do I need to put a pump in the bin to circulate the water so it doesn't go stale? With a TDS reading of zero, I don't think there much in there that will foul the water while it's in storage but I just want to be sure.

Also, to get the water out I will be using a pump. Can I leave that pump in the bin when not in use?

You could have obtained 0 TDS with just a high end (regenerating resins) DI unit alone. Many other cost advantages like no wasted water, much higher flow, etc.

To answer your real questions: It is recommended to bubble or circulate newly purified water overnight before adding supplements. You can leave the pump in, but it is better to add supplements soon - such as alkalinity, calcium, etc.

agent007 · #50 10/31/2007, 03:28 PM

That would mean your DI membrane would not last as long, since it has more impurities to filter.

I had a water filter before, for drinking water and wanted a solution
that would work for the family and the fish. I also found that the filtration I was getting from my previous water filter was not truly beneficial. It only cleaned up the taste.

An RO/DI system seems to be the best solution of the family and the fish.

Re water storage:
Thanks for that. I'll cleanup one of my old pumps to circulate the water in the bin.

I dose the main tank daily with alk and Ca (will add reactor(s) some time in the future) so I wasn't planning on adding it to the water storage bin. I wanted to store DI water in pure state for top-ups and mix with salt (in seperate container) when needed. Is that alright?