decided to post here- ich questions

[bveselka]

I decided to post here because I had not gotten any response in the other forum- I am getting ready to take action so I guess it is the bottom portion of this post that I need help with- the hospital tank size and if it will be okay. I am pretty much decided that this is ich- clown has it now too!!!! I was in denial soooo- what if I take some of the live rock out of my main tank to put in the hospital temperarily- then leave it in there for another 40 days after I removed the (hopefully) cured fish to allow the ich to die off the rocks?? Below are my original posts:


I recently aquired a 125 gallon established reef tank. It came with 4 fish- large purple tang, flame angel, clown, and royal gamma. my question is this. the guy mentioned that he had problems with ich in the past. fish looked great when i came to pick up the tank and looked great the first week at my home. no signs of stress. then one day i noticed small white specks on the tang and angel. well my first thought was ich. then i started thinking...I had mixed some water to add to raise my water level- not top off- actually mixed salt water because i felt the tank needed a higher level. anyway, the salt that he sent with the tank was not my normal oceanic- rather coralife. I felt that the salt did not mix very well and when i added the water to the sump, i could see lots of (what I thought was) undissolved salt shooting into the tank. the next day the fish had the spots. then a day or 2 later they were gone??? could the salt have stuck to the fish? Reason i am asking is because i recently (like a day ago) did a water change and the same thing happened. weird...I know. none of the other fish have these spots. i will have to check to see if they are still there today- because they showed up last night.

Also- if it is determined to be ich- is my 24 gallon nano cube too small to house my 1 purple tang, 2 clowns, 1 royal gramma, 1 flame angel, 1 diamond goby, 4 damsels, 1 yellow clown goby for the recommended time to rid my main tank of ich??? i have no live rock in the nano so no place to hide!!!

[SUPERHERO2943]

I would look into a UV sterilizer. Solved all my ich problems.

[bveselka]

does a uv sterilizer only kill the ich that is in the tank or on the fish as well?- would i still have to treat the sick fish in the quarantine tank?

[Salty Brother]

ich is a very touchy thing that i am actaully dealing with right now. And it will be hard for you to get one responce cause so many people have different opions, and some will yell at you that you didnt QT them in the first place, oh well. If you dont want to start QT then try soaking all food in garlic and treating the tank with Marine C. this should help build their immune systems. But if the fish arnt eating then I think you should set up a QT. Now the UV, you can use that on the QT tank im pretty sure, but it has been know to help on people main tanks so you might want to try that.
Good luck, i know the feeling.
Patrick

[capn_hylinur]

Here is an excellent article by Steven Pro on Ich:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by bveselka
does a uv sterilizer only kill the ich that is in the tank or on the fish as well?- would i still have to treat the sick fish in the quarantine tank?

uv sterilizers are very expensive only kill the ich bacteria in the water column. They do not kill the fish.

IMO hyposalination in a qt tank is the only way to actually rid ich from your system.

[bveselka]

this is my very first run in with ich- so forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject- where can i get garlic at- something sold at my lfs? All of my fish are still eating vigorously- with exception to the angel- she has always been a slower eater. Also, one of the foods that I feed is a pellet form that has garlic. Should i be soaking this as well?

[bveselka]

To Salty Brother: what is marine c.- like i said...my first ich encounter. also, is it coral friendly? as long as my fish appear to be thriving...which they are at this point, then garlic soaked food and this marine c. should help? Will the marine c be useful in ridding my rocks of the ich as well?

[luke33]

I'll tell you how i have treated ick. IMO only hypo and copper will rid ick. Garlic will keep your fish's immune system healthy but once they have ick.....they have ick. If you had leeches all over you and ate garlic would they drop off? A UV will zap the one stage of ick, the free swiming stage but it won't get them all so it won't cure ick. It could control it, but not during a breakout. Anyhow, i put my fish in my qt and dosed with copper for a month. Pro's, got rid of ick, cons, killed bacteria and had to do alot of water changes, hard on fish. I always left my main tank fallow without fish for 6weeks. I also put all fish in qt and hypo'd but you have to use a refractometer to make sure its at .009, did that for 6weeks, worked great and wasn't to stressful on the fish. I also have taken all LR from main tank and put in QT and hypo'd main tank. All invert's and corals, whatnot have to be removed as well. Pro's worked well and didn't stress out the fish to much. Con's.....all copods and bristleworms what not died. Once i added all lr back it took a couple mths and my tank was back to normal pod and bristlewise. They all work. Your best option may be to remove all your rock and put it in your 24g and hypo your main tank. You'll have to monitor the amm level's. Mine stayed at zero. Your skimmer won't pull much either as it needs to be at a higher sg to work well. Mine did about a cup every week or so. Good luck!

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by bveselka
To Salty Brother: what is marine c.- like i said...my first ich encounter. also, is it coral friendly? as long as my fish appear to be thriving...which they are at this point, then garlic soaked food and this marine c. should help? Will the marine c be useful in ridding my rocks of the ich as well?

as one teacher to the other--read the article I suggested

like do you homework or you have a detention

garlic builds up immune systems but it doesn't cure ich--ich can totally destroy your fish if left unchecked

[pelochas]

the 24 gallon is good for a few months. i did all my fish in a 30, no lighting, no rocks, no sand, just a few pieces of pvc pipes like elbows, couplers, and i even threw in some fake aquairum plans for those fish like damsels who like to hide into something in the nights.

dont move the rock. ich will certainly die off in two or three months. i did three months evryone came out good. i used copper treatment cupramine in the quarantine tank. this means that quarantine tank is longer available for corals in the future.

[SUPERHERO2943]

A UV sterilizer will run you about $150 for a good one. Not bad to never have to worry about ich. It does only kill the ich in the water that passes though the sterilizer. BUT ich has to detach from the fish to reproduce and when it does that it is then IN THE WATER and goes thru the sterilizer and gets killed. I am telling you I had ich all the time with my tangs until I got a UV. I have had small outbreaks here and there but the UV always clears it up with in a couple days. IT IS WORTH THE MONEY!!!!!! much less expensive than replacing $30 and $40 dollar fish that die from ich.

[ryanpal]

i just noticed ich on my pbt two nights ago. he was looking very healthy prior so im' quite surprised. my longnose butterfly looks like he might have ich as well.

i noticed the pbt was swimming around less, but then i soaked their food in garlic (regular organic powder garlic from wholefoods). the interesting thing is they both seem wired. swimming around somewhat aggressively (even after eating). as a matter of fact, they seem to be eating constantly. weird no?

i have a qt tank ready to go, but two concerns i have.

1. i read that fish can fight off ich by themselves.
-should i monitor them and see how they do before the quarantine?

2. i was told if i can't net them, it's a good sign and that they might be fighting it off themselves, so i should keep close eye and if they become sluggish, not eating or resting at the bottom to qt them immediately.

...im going to read the article posted but im curious as to what you guys think

[SUPERHERO2943]

This guy thinks if you keep tangs, or other fish prone to ich you need a UV sterilizer. You can't "cure ich" you can only control it. It's like herpes for fish. Just because there are no symptoms doesn't mean its not there. Get a UV.

[luke33]

You can most certainly cure ick, its a parasite, not a virus.....

[pelochas]

i dont like the ideas of adding equipment like uvs and just add chemicals or so called rid ich products, this is just a big ol lazy excuse of not doing what you should be looking out for, the fish's health. get a quarantine tank and start copper treatment or at least hypo.

ich can be rid of it you remove all the fish, i never seen a flea without a dog

[SUPERHERO2943]

its a parasite that is always present whether you see it or not.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by SUPERHERO2943
its a parasite that is always present whether you see it or not.

Sure, just like fleas and ticks on your dog or lice in people. There is no way to fully rid yourself of these external parasites.

[SUPERHERO2943]

Just replace all your substrate with a bed of pennies. That ought to "cure" the ich problem.

[SUPERHERO2943]

Disclaimer: Please understand that the above post is a joke. DO NOT put pennies in your tank.

[ahullsb]

I don't think there is any clear cut evidence that ich is always present in your tank. I've heard arguments both ways. All I know is that I ran hypo for 7 weeks back in January. I haven't seen a trace of ich since.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by SUPERHERO2943
its a parasite that is always present whether you see it or not.

I disagree------

"I want to be clear on this point. I do not believe Cryptocaryon irritans is always present in our systems. With a strict quarantine protocol, it is possible keep an Ich-free aquarium. I just believe that there have been enough hobbyists who have misused a treatment or utilized an ineffective treatment option, such that they never really fully conquered their initial infestation. Their continuing problems over the course of many months, and the posting of those experiences, seem to be enough to promote this aquarium myth. Cryptocaryon irritans can be eradicated from an infected system with a proven treatment and can be kept out of the system if good quarantine practices are employed"

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
I disagree------

"I want to be clear on this point. I do not believe Cryptocaryon irritans is always present in our systems. With a strict quarantine protocol, it is possible keep an Ich-free aquarium. I just believe that there have been enough hobbyists who have misused a treatment or utilized an ineffective treatment option, such that they never really fully conquered their initial infestation. Their continuing problems over the course of many months, and the posting of those experiences, seem to be enough to promote this aquarium myth. Cryptocaryon irritans can be eradicated from an infected system with a proven treatment and can be kept out of the system if good quarantine practices are employed"

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by SUPERHERO2943
This guy thinks if you keep tangs, or other fish prone to ich you need a UV sterilizer. You can't "cure ich" you can only control it. It's like herpes for fish. Just because there are no symptoms doesn't mean its not there. Get a UV.

this is very controversal--alot of dependant variables:


Treatment Option 9: U.V. Sterilization

Ultraviolet sterilizers work by damaging most anything in the water column that passes through them. Their effectiveness is dependent on the wattage of the unit, the flow rate through the unit, the age of the lamp, the volume of the water being treated, the cleanliness of the sleeve, the clarity of the water, and the decorations (potential hiding spots for tomonts) in the aquarium (Moe, 1989). Colorni & Burgess (1997) discuss the use of UV. They extrapolate from a previous study done on freshwater Ich, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, and UV (If you are so interested, the original article is Gratzek, Gilbert, Lohr, Shotts, and Brown's 1983 piece "Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in a closed fish culture recirculation system." It can be found in the Journal of Fish Diseases volume 6 pages 145-153). In the study, they showed UV could prevent the spread of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis when used on a central system, but could not affect a cure within an individual aquarium. Colorni and Burgess believe the same would hold true with Cryptocaryon irritans. I would concur with them as my own personal/professional experience has demonstrated the same. I have found UV's to be very effective in bare bottom tanks, primarily in retail and wholesale operations. In display aquaria, the volume of the tank, the substrate and rockwork, the flow rate of the UV, and the wattage all work against its effectiveness. In commercial operations, many times, employees wipe down bare bottom tanks daily to maintain a clean appearance for customers. This has the added benefit of knocking loose the cyst stage of the parasite. The bare bottom, minimal decoration, high flow rates, and massive UV units on these systems ensure that most all the cysts and theronts pass through the sterilizer and are neutralized

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by Steven Pro
I couldn't have said it better myself.

wow--in my life time--nice to meet you---as you can see I highly respect your work

Scott