New Deodronephthya sp. study group?

[reefgeek84]

Originally posted by Flint&Eric
sorry if this has been mentioned, but any news on the use of the fauna marin polymer / enzyme foods specifically made for filter feeders etc... last i heard they were haveing good success with dendros using a bacterioplankton system and those types of foods...

Can you point me in the proper direction to find this food? Thanks.

[graveyardworm]

http://www.aquariumobsessed.com./

[Kolognekoral]

I have been using various Fauna Marin products for the last 6 months. All have merit, so far. The Ultra Mins plus Ultra Organics are dosed daily to my aquarium to feed the corals and lower animals. I use Ultra Seafan for my Crinoids and Gorgonians, along with the more typical Cyclopeze. Also, I use some fine dust foods from Timo, another European company possibly not yet in North America.

The polymer food, Ultra Pac, has fans in Germany, but some do not like it. I think it will generally depend on your animals and feeding habits. It is more of a food carrier than a food of itself. It is mixed with other Ultra products to create a 'Custom' slime for filter feeders. I, also, have used Ultra Clam for filter feeders and my animals are all still healthy and growing.

It is difficult to know if any given product is the answer, as every animal is a bit different. I have had great success with Crinoids, but less with Dendros. My biggest problem with Dendros/Scleros has been bristle worms attacking them! They never get a chance to settle in.

hope this helps,

[Jens Kallmeyer]

The polymer food, Ultra Pac, has fans in Germany, but some do not like it. I think it will generally depend on your animals and feeding habits. It is more of a food carrier than a food of itself. It is mixed with other Ultra products to create a 'Custom' slime for filter feeders. I, also, have used Ultra Clam for filter feeders and my animals are all still healthy and growing.

It is difficult to know if any given product is the answer, as every animal is a bit different. I have had great success with Crinoids, but less with Dendros. My biggest problem with Dendros/Scleros has been bristle worms attacking them! They never get a chance to settle in.

hope this helps,

[/B]

HI Jamie

The UltraPac was never intended as a food, just as a carrier, but apparently it works as a food as well, however in a rather indirect way.
A friend of mine is preparing the stuff together with some other Fauna Marin Products in a beaker and lets it sit on a nice and warm T5 pendant for a few hours (up to one day). After it becomes really yucky and slimey he uses it for the corals. His impression is that the reaction of the corals is even better. UltraPac contains a mix of different polysaccharides. Most probably bacteria start breaking that stuff down, so perhaps not the UltraPac is causing the feeding response, but the bacteria munching on it.


Jens

[charles matthews]

Sorry I've been away, quite busy. I was able to speak to Chuck Stottlemeyer recently, and have proposed that we sponsor an early report for general publication. His tank is at seven months and demonstrates some important points:

1) Drip phytoplankton Reeds' Shellfish Diet continuously.
2) Vodka method for nutrient control and possibly bacterial bloom as food. Some turbidity occurs on a regular basis. Never stop the feed drip!
3) Temp max at 76, no deviations greater than 1 degree to 77 during the seven months this tank has been up.
4) Linear flow.
5) Frag to 1 inch branchlets on arrival.

There are other aspects to his tank that may be important, and I may not have gotten the points exactly right. But, I think Chuck's basic outline here is about what I have seen over the years. His tank is at seven months, but what's important here is that he has excellent polyp extension, the dendros being expanded about 20 hours/day, and he has dense polyp formation and clear growth. Like acro keepers, I believe we should value polyp extension- and recovery of previously regressed fragments (to some extent, as they do do into a regression due to transient factors and may spontaneously come out again after somewhat skinning over) - as a positive sign worth reporting.

I curently have some scleros that are over 2.5 years old, but they are just nubbins- they have been through many experiments. I prefer these to new specimens since I feel I know them personally and any improvement or growth is easily appreciated. I am currently working on automatic live phyto and rotifer drips, using the SS strain of Brachionis rotundiformis, which is smaller than the usual rotifers; I am also using UVB reptile lights to grow the algae, as I was suspicious that the phyto we have been using is deficient in vitamin D, and that this may be needed for flagellae activity and may be relevant for colony collapsing syndrome. That's just speculation, but I had become suspicious that either phyto was not what they were eating (that is, maybe Widdig was right, although his methods of truncating branchlets prior to testing seems extermely doubtful relevance to me) or maybe the phyto was deficient in vitamin D since it was grown under flourescent rather than UVB emitting lights. I am tryingto replicate Joyce Wilkerson's outside tub method of culturing rotifers, except inside, using two tubs in sequence, one for phyto and one for rotifers, with an aquiliter pump pushing through the two tubs connected by rigid airline tube, then overflow to the aquarium. I am using no aeration, and instead of a UV filter for the incoming water from the tank, I am not using anything so far- the stagnant water seems to select for self-suspending algae that are heavy in lipids, and also is suitable to the rotifers (like the outside tubs). So far, so good, but too early.

Again, hope Amy and Chuck will be interested in writing this up-

Charles

[Morgandy]

I've posted new pictures that Chuck took recently.

Non-photosynthetic/Dendro Tank

I am going to go back and date all previous pictures, and then start putting the same species side by side so we can see the progressive growth and changes. I'll also be sure to get all species names possible from him before I upload them.

He'll have to answer any questions you have!

thx..

[Kreeger1]

Nice Pictures again Amy, It sounds as if we've got a front row seat to a break through in the reefing hobby. I should probably stop over chucks house more to see how things are progressing
Erik

[Serioussnaps]

Wow..this thread is quite inspiring. Chuck's tank is unique as one can be IMHO.

[Stottlemire]

Hi everyone
just wondering if anybody is still playing with the dendro systems maybe get some new pics posted

[Morgandy]

Originally posted by Stottlemire
Hi everyone
just wondering if anybody is still playing with the dendro systems maybe get some new pics posted

Ok, I'll cough some up!

These of course are from the tank of Chuck himself...hit my website/redhouse to see more. There are a couple very short video clips at the end of one page 1 of the dendro pics, and I'll get some more clips posted soon.

I'd like to hear also how some of you guys are coming along, if you have more news.

A partial tank shot:


Frag cut mark:


Frag:


The tank really is breathtaking. There have been several of us who have given him dendros/scleros/swiftia's/gorgonians, on and on, that have been near death, and they come back to life and start growth in the dang thing!

[salty joe]

Originally posted by Stottlemire
To put answers to some of the questions.First the flow 3 6100 Tunze pumps at one end of the tank on a Tunze multi controller all blasting in the same direction. Feeding, now thats the story of this tank. Phyto feast by Reed Mariculture 60mls total over a 24hr period. I also add 40mls of Rotifers by Reed a day, these are the main foods I add. No I don't spot feed the corals. lighting is a pair of t-5s at 54watts each. A skimmer is the filtration. The system is about 6 years old it started as an acro tank. the oldest dendros are frags I started 6 months ago, I made the frags 1in and now here it is 6months later the frags are between 3.5 and 5 inches tall now. The corals are encrusting on the rocks. I hope this answers your questions David.
Chuck

Wow, what a nice looking tank! And only a couple hundred watts of light.

Can you tell me what kind of substrate you are using?

Thanks,
Joe

[Kreeger1]

A pair of 54 watt t5's sounds more like 104 watts of light not a couple hundred

[Stottlemire]

Salty Joe
the substrate is just an araganite with some small shells and gravel it seems to work well.

[salty joe]

Thanks, how deep is it?

[Stottlemire]

The sand is about 3 inches. Do you have a Dendro system?

[salty joe]

No, I'm just along for the ride. Thank you and everyone else for the sharing of info.

Joe

[dendro982]

I know that this is Dendronephthya thread, but many of you are keeping other non-photosynthetic corals as well. Can somebody help with advice on specifics of scleronephthya keeping?

So far I was lucky with non-photosynthetic gorgonians and Christmas tree worms, now trying to add baby scleros to the system. I have few of them for a few months, two startes to grow a little. Now added one more rock withs smallest scleros.

As I can see from this thread, the temperature is preferably lower, around 77F, but at what level should be alkalinity and nitrates? Phosphates - be unmeasurable, right?

Should be filtration and skimmer be turned off during feeding, how long should be cycles on and off, or filtration is working all the time and just the amount of the food should be increased, may be 4x, to compensate their removal by skimmer?

Thanks.

[Stottlemire]

Dendro982
Do you have a tank set up just for non-photosynthetic corals?
These corals as well as others like them like more nutrients.

[dendro982]

Do you have a tank set up just for non-photosynthetic corals?

Yes, I have established tank, holding only Chili corals and Diodogorgia with (likely) Siphonogorgia non-photosynthetic gorgonians. 6g, no light, equal size sump with LR and macroalgae. Micron filter sock between them.
The problem with this tank is that this baby sclero started to decline, when the tank become unlit, before that it had 18W PC. Could be coincidence, of course. And the chilis with gorgonians are using the different size of food, close t 600-800 micron, mostly dried Cyclop-eeze. The small-polyped corals are just bombarded by this large food.

This tank is small, as most of my tanks, except 90g.

90g could be used too - it's low light, high nutrients tank, holding messy fish, fed 3 times daily very well. I tried chilis there, but they opens regularly only in a dark tank. Baby pink scleronephthya was here for almost an year, no visible growth, despite of abundance of the finest food particles and proper laminar(ish) flow from Seio poweheads.

Because of this the new, orange baby scleros, are in established 10g tank with anothers fine filer feeders - Christmas tree rock with Spirobranchus worms, and new non-photosynthetic gorgonians - tangerine Swiftia, blueberry (likely Acalycigorgia) and with finest intense blue polyps (likely Guaiagorgia).
It can be counted only as filter feeders tank, because porites and baby Tridacnas there require the good light.
This tank also receives multiple feedings daily, but in smaller range - 10-250 micron to frozen baby brine.

I may use any of these tanks, or a not used 20g/64L extra high tank (will be problem with access for a cleaning bottom) or 20g/64L long (can't make the laminar flow of more or less equal intensity along the tank, yet).

The tank with large particles feeders has high nitrates and phosphates (80 and up to 1 ppm correspondingly), that are reduces by massive water changes and PO4 removing media, Alk is stable at 10-11 dKH.

Fine filter feeders tank has relatively low nitrates and practically no phosphates (10-20 ppm NO3), Alk drops all the time, usually at 7-8 dKH, and had to be added frequently. Lives on water changes too, less massive. Has an almost equal size side sump and a good skimmer.

90g dirty tank with spitting fish and regularly spawning Tubastrea (a lot on baby colonies across the tank), has medium nitrates 20-40 ppm and medium phosphates (0.25-0.5 ppm), that are removed by PO4 removing media. Alk is stable at 8-9 dKH. This tank has the a skimmer, rated for 200g.

All are bare bottom.

My apologies for a long post and the small tanks (lack of space).

My concerns are about:
- what alkalinity is preferable, also if dendros kept dying until nitrates were raised - will this be applicable for a scleros too? What about phosphates? I can keep them at any level, including total removing by RowaPhos.
- after reading posts about keeping non-photosynthetic tanks, I prefer to keep LR in the sump, after filtration, so it will not be clogged by particulate matter, and the main tank will be cleanable. This also reduces housing for bristle worms, who plaque the rock, to which scleros are attached, and now they are hiding under shells, the gorgonians are attached to. Big broblem.
- it seems to be reasonable to keep the corals, feeding by different particles size, in different tanks, and feed each group by properly sized food to exclude irritation by a large number of large particles, beating their surface.
- would like to hear any thoughts on keeping the food suspended for along time (other, than plankton kreizel) and how do you remove them, when they eventually settle on the bottom, under LR (moved there by flow) .
- the last is about filtration or skimming on-off during feeding: is skimming is working all the time?

Thank you.
I do realize, that you may not have much time for typing, the short hints to the point will be perfectly OK.
I'm tracking information for non-photosynthetic corals systems for 1.5 yrs, general considerations are already in my bones and blood
Keeping the oldest chili for 1.5 yrs, and Christmas tree wirms with Diodogorgia - for an year.

[Kreeger1]

New pic of the above dendro frag

In a diferent tank now
Thanks Chuck!
Erik
BTW I saw your dvd Amy, great work I was really impressed

[Morgandy]

I've posted new pics of Chuck's tank (R/C - Stottlemire), taken 1st week of September. I still need to organize some side-by-side comparisons of growth rates over the months, and post the pics I did of his frag plugs and some other things. As usual, the tank is looking gorgeous!

http://www.quillworker.com/dendrotank3.htm

There are links for the first 2 dendro pages from that one if you haven't seen them yet.

[sammy33]

Chucks tank is the best dendro/non-photosynthetic reef I have seen yet!

I would love to see more pics of Chucks setup and desriptions of the techniques (feeding and flow, etc.).

[Kreeger1]

Sammy just read the last couple pages, theres info on his tank there

[pnsnowboard]

that is amazing


i work at a lfs and we have been keeping a red dendro for about 4 months everyday when i go into work i use a turkey baster to spot feed it zooplex and phytoplankton
it has great polyp extention and it seems to be doing very well

[Kreeger1]

What type of phyto are you feeding? and zooplex is 800 microns, I'm guessing thats to large for dendro's. Probably good for sea fans though. I'm no pro at this, Just learning as I go so I could be wrong.