The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by jasonh
IR,

...of course, you can't cure traditional portland under water. ...

Actually you can, it just takes a lot longer.

My guess is my mix was a tad on the dry side for using Perlite.

A bit wetter, and IMO, less aggregate to cement ratio - I like 1:3, personally.

[cayars]

Oh also I think some of you got the impression the micro silicia is somewhat magical with lowering pH. It's not. It helps reduce the time but doesn't do away with cement curing.

I've always used both Calcium and Micro Silicia together so I don't know how well just the MS would be on it's own. Could be the same but I can't verify it.

I can tell you I use 300g saltwater curing vats (as part of the cure) with digital pH monitors connected to an AquaController and can definitely see a reduction in time from cast to good to sell with rock made with Calcium and Micro Silicia. Overall it's about 1/3 to 1/4 less time. For large tanks with high bio-loads (naturally drives down pH) I can go from cast to in tank in 7 days while keeping the pH of the tank no higher then 8.4/8.5.

For typical store rock I normally need 21 days give or take a day or two depending on size of rock unless they are huge pieces which take a little longer. Even with big pieces I cheat and "glue" smaller (pre-cured) rocks together when ever possible.

Carlo

Definitely don't want there to be a misconception on this stuff. Nothing "magical" but every little bit of time savings helps if you sell it.

[jasonh]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
[B]Actually you can, it just takes a lot longer.



A bit wetter, and IMO, less aggregate to cement ratio - I like 1:3, personally.

You're suggesting 1 perlite to 3 cement? Surprising, usually there's more aggregate than cement, no?

[Insane Reefer]

LOL,
Sorry - that would be 1 cement to 3 aggregate., hence the "less aggregate".

[mr.wilson]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
LOL,
Sorry - that would be 1 cement to 3 aggregate., hence the "less aggregate".

You've got me confused too IR.

[Insane Reefer]

Cayars, ok - that sounds more in line with my thoughts. I think the confusion for a lot of us came when you said you could go from cast to tank in one day. From my perspective, that sounds a bit magical, esp with what I've learned about cement in my search for a quicker rock.
Thanks for giving a time-frame, I think that will help a lot in expectations.

[Insane Reefer]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
You've got me confused too IR.

Folks often go for more aggregate with the Ol' Skool type rocks, using a 4-5 aggregate to 1 cement - I think for the perlite rock, one needs to use less aggregate then one normally would so that there is more cement between the aggregate particles (so the cement gives more support to the perlite).

[jasonh]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
Folks often go for more aggregate with the Ol' Skool type rocks, using a 4-5 aggregate to 1 cement - I think for the perlite rock, one needs to use less aggregate then one normally would so that there is more cement between the aggregate particles (so the cement gives more support to the perlite).

Ah, NOW I get what you're saying

These rocks I did 1 cement, 2 perlite, 1 OS, about 0.5 sand. I think I am going to skip the sand next time, and use more water.

What I'd really like, is to have the OS be a bit smaller size. I was thinking of using the food processor, but I have a feeling my wife would kill me, plus, I really like our food processor

[Insane Reefer]

Yeahhhh.....
I'd kill you if you used the food processor, lol - those sorts of things are "kitchen power tools" - respect the tools, man.

If you can, see if you can find other stores that carry it - I've seen larger and smaller sized OS, so you might find one you like better. I always look around the pallet the bags are on - at some point, a bag has broken, and some pieces will usually be found to look at.

[cayars]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
Cayars, ok - that sounds more in line with my thoughts. I think the confusion for a lot of us came when you said you could go from cast to tank in one day. From my perspective, that sounds a bit magical, esp with what I've learned about cement in my search for a quicker rock.
Thanks for giving a time-frame, I think that will help a lot in expectations.

Oh got ya. In MY SYSTEM I can because of the water volume. Adding say 100-250lbs of high pH rock doesn't throw my system off at all because the neptune controller sees the higher pH and shuts down the kalk drip and other carbonate drips and calcium reactors if needed and brings them back on line as the pH declines. Sorry about the confusion.

I typically always keep the rock for 21 days before it would go to a store for sale because I don't know what size system it is going to go into. I just get "use" from it (Kalk drip replacement) before hand and "seed" it with bacteria from my system.

I vary things a little but right now what I'm doing is taking the rock from the cast the next day, soaking it in warm water (water left out in the sun) for a 1/2 day to a day to release the salt (I use a little in the mix plus sometimes for interesting crevices) and then sit out on the blacktop (used to be a basketball court before I took it over) with plastic sheets over it. Unless it rains I'll spray a fine mist over it daily and flip the rocks over in a couple of days. Sometimes I'll re-dip the rock if big to soak it again and then put it back under the plastic.

At about day 7 or 8 I'll move it to a freshwater bath for a day and then into my outdoor 300g tubs (connected to my inside system) which of course are salt water at 35% salinity. Being outside they get direct sunlight (uncovered with no UV protection). I'll normally get a profuse diatom outbreak on them and the tub which is good. I don't clean out the "brown stuff" but do have a decent size skimmer running outside on these tanks (also a few inside).

This hasn't affected any of my inside tanks. The diatoms "brown" up the rock nicely (I flip the rocks every couple of days) and within about 2 weeks start to get nice green coralline algae growing on the rock. When I get to the point of getting enough brown and green on the rocks I'll move them inside to my stock tanks under PCs which bring out the pink and purple coralline algae. The shift in lights gets me nice looking rock pretty quickly. Oh, probably worth mentioning I mix a little coloring in the mix (usually Terra Cotta sp?) to be off white leaning towards a pinkish tint. The combined colors of the rock come out very nice within a months time. Pink and purple coralline algae grows like crazy in my tanks and I'm constantly (every day) scraping this off the glass which releases the spores into the water column.

Of course I sometimes sell the rock right from the 300g tub when it's pH safe. The longer I hold it and color it up the more I sell it for. Some stores want cheap rock (say $2/lb) and other want nicely colored rock much better looking then Fiji for ($4/lb). Some want middle ground rock that's nice a brown with some green and just a tad bid of pink/purple on it for $3/lb. So I try and keep a "balance of stores" buying wholesale from me so I can keep my more limited inside operation full while still pushing more rock via the larger outside tubs.

I'm not sure what the winter months are going to do to me but I'll probably move some tubs into the garage and get another 2 months of production that way. I've been looking into solar tubes but I'm not sure it's worth it. Time will tell.

You can view the pH of my system as a whole (inside reef tanks, prop tanks, ray tanks, trigger tanks as well as the outside 300G) looking at my personal website located at SaltyLiveStock.com. The pH is always above 8.3 and usually in the 8.4 to 8.5 range where I like to keep it. There's some limited pics of my system on there but most are a few months old. I'm going to have a bunch of pics online next week of each system and my new equipment setup which drawfs the pics on there now.

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

Awesome - great site you have there, Cayars Just need a few pic's of the rockworks and outdoor pond to be complete.

Keep us posted on what you do come winter - I think winter is the hurdle that keeps many from becoming frag/rock farmers - most can't afford to build a greenhouse, and trying to heat 500+ gallons at 30°F can be tricky from what I hear.

Thanks again for all the info

[cayars]

I agree, rock is one thing (easier) but I couldn't imagine sinking all the money into heating during the cold months to have one little glitch wipe out everything (corals).

At least in the house you have your normal heater keeping air temps reasonable (mostly not electric) and can have several electrical heaters in the tank so in the event of a gas problem or electricity going out you still have heat.

Heat is the "killer" for outdoor water!

Carlo

[Insane Reefer]

So Cayars, did you try the sulfur rock? I know it is too soon to have anything concrete (hehehe) like pH results, but if you did try it, did it harden as cement should? Was it yellow? Did it stink like rotten eggs?

Curious Monkey here

[mmm55645]

would pellitized limestone work as well as pulverised limestone for MMLR? the ingrediants were different on two bags I saw today, but I don't know enough to know if I should not use the pellitized.

[Insane Reefer]

Hmmm.
Would need more info on it, MMM. I had found Pelletized Lime at the hardware store, and no, I didn't think that would work. Maybe if you got the name and looked for the company online, we could see what it is for sure...

[sixfins]

Mr.Wilson
I'm making a background/divider with an eggcrate frame and planning on using either hydraulic cement or quickcrete. I was wondering if it is ok to add other aggregates and if one would be better suited than the other?

[jasonh]

I tested my rocks' Ph today..8.0 So I cleaned them up a bit and decided not to use one of them because it was just breaking apart too much.

Anyway, I put the remaining rock in the 20g I set up a couple days ago, and here is the result:



I still have a little bit of junk flaking off, but it's not bad at all. I need to make a couple more rocks tonight. I'm probably gonna pick up 5-7lbs of LR at the LFS today to seed with.

[sunkool]

He looks lonely

[mmm55645]

the pellitized limestone had a high concentration of calcium oxide - is that reef safe?

[jasonh]

Originally posted by sunkool
He looks lonely

yeah, he did. So I got him some friends today A new LFS opened up around here called AZ Sea Bottom. Really nice people and great selection and prices.

[ozadars]

Dont do it with bare hands. I did and my hands still hurt a lot.

Btw, I plan to cure the rocks in the sea. Hope it goes well.

[jasonh]

Originally posted by ozadars
Dont do it with bare hands. I did and my hands still hurt a lot.

Btw, I plan to cure the rocks in the sea. Hope it goes well.

Don't do what with bare hands?

[cayars]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer
So Cayars, did you try the sulfur rock? I know it is too soon to have anything concrete (hehehe) like pH results, but if you did try it, did it harden as cement should? Was it yellow? Did it stink like rotten eggs?

Curious Monkey here

I'd say the verdict is in on the sulfur. It still creates slightly "mushy" mix (not that bad). It does change the color a little bit (again not really bad, just different).

It did harden pretty much as usual. No smell to it but I wouldn't think there would be any issue with this until it's been in the tank.

The main question, did it help lower the pH of the rock quicker. NOPE, and I think it made the rock a little more brittle then usual.

Busted experiment but I think we all knew this was coming. Worth a shot however, since I had the stuff on hand.

Carlo

[ozadars]

Originally posted by jasonh
Don't do what with bare hands?

Sorry, i wasnt very clear. I mixed the cement with other things with my bare hands and i didnt wear anything while giving it shape too. Now, my hands are peeling.

[toxqc]

I just bought a bag of portland type IO, that was the only type available except for the type N. Will the type IO work or should I bring it back?