jacuzzi pump for closed loop

[jaysonsd]

Quick Q: will a pump designed for a jacuzzi work as an external pump for a closed loop? Guys @ a lfs are telling me no (seals will break down and rust the motor or short it out) for one I got used that was on a sw system.

thanks

[Wryknow]

I would recommend against it. It's probably very noise and not terribly energy efficient for starters, and it's unlikely that it was designed for use in saltwater.

[luke33]

Even if it did, its pry drawing lots of electricity, and adding alot of heat. Not a good idea.

[db_triggerfish]

I don't know if electricity prices are high in California i would guest yes, but closed loop really don't make sense anymore. Many have posted that they are not happy. That pump can start a fire if it wasn't designed for saltwater, that alone would keep away from using it. But i am extra careful with saltwater and fire risks. thats just me. Hey CL on a pico 3g? LOL

[jaysonsd]

Yeah, its a tiny might circulating pump. Its got a high gph @ 4 feet (1100) and runs on 115 volts, but found a seller that states: "Tiny Might pumps seals are very susceptible to damage from pool chemical imbalances. Be sure to keep your ph levels at the correct balance. Failure to do this will result in premature seal failure, which will damage the motor bearings."

How don't closed loops make sense anymore? Closed loop allows slow flow through my fuge/sump. I don't want a bunch of powerheads in my tank creating a lot of heat (on top of the mh in a corner apartment on the 4th floor with no air conditioning ). The inline closed loop takes take of a lot of those problems.

[Wryknow]

Powerheads are more efficeint in terms of power consumption and they don't involve a lot of extra plumbing and holes that can potentially leak later on down the line. Some folks hate the aesthetics though and if you're in this camp then by all means go for a closed loop system.

How big of a system are you setting up? I'm sure that we can recommend some decent closed loop set-ups for your tank if you're interested.

[jaysonsd]

The tank's used 30gal Oceanic cube, preplumbed w/ an insane amount of spouts, the outlet for the closed loop is 2" with 2 3/4" returns and a spray bar, then there's a dual central overflow, one spout to the modded skimmer and the other to the sump that return through pvc in the canopy with 3/4 returns. It would be great if I could afford a ocean's motion's, opted for two scwds I'm modding. Previous tank was a pico so a lot of this is over my head for the moment.

Quick couple Q's if anyone can answer (hard time to find answers in rc w/ so many posts):
1. is there a major disadvantage to flexible tubing as far as loss of flow?
2. been playing with the head loss calc, my gph goes way up when I increase the pipe diameter, but does that hold true even if the pump's outlet and tank's inlets are smaller than the pipe size? (i.e. 3/4" outlet I convert to 1" w/ pvc adaptors that still comes out a 3/4" spout?)

thanks guys

[Wryknow]

Felxible tube is usually a plus for flow since there are no sharp angles to cause head pressure (the exception to this is if you have kinks in your line.) The manufacturer usually rates their pumps on the same diameter pipe as they have on the output nozzle of the pump. Using wider plumping than the pump output has limited value since the water is still restricted by the output nozzle of the pump.

The SCWDs aren't bad for the money but they work best if you have a decent flow through them otherwise it seems like they bind up more frequently. (Plus the SCWDs are designed for flex tubing so I would certainly go with that for your situation.)

Are you wanting to with an external pump on this? External pumps are kind of noisy and most of the are way over-powered for your system. I think that my personal set-up with this tank would look like this:

1" drain line (you'll need an adaptor for your 2" bulk head obviously) running from the CL intake to an E-heim 1262 - which I would put inside my sump. I would then run the output to a single SCWD, which would have outputs to 2 x 3/4" returns. This will give you about 800 gph of alternating current (and will be quiet, reliable and energy efficient.)

For the return I would run a single E-heim 1250 and jut split the return to use both of the return lines. This should give you around 150 gpd at 5' of head which is in the 3 - 5 times tank voulme per hour guideline for sump flow.

One issue that you'll have to watch is heat. These two pumps are both pretty efficient for their size but you're still putting over 100W of ebergy into a 30 gallon set-up. This may or may not be an issue depending on lighting, room temperature, evaporation, etc. Using an external pump for the closed loop would probably be better heat-wise but they are noisy and there is still some heat transfer on those too. That's just my $.02.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by jaysonsd

How don't closed loops make sense anymore? Closed loop allows slow flow through my fuge/sump. I don't want a bunch of powerheads in my tank creating a lot of heat (on top of the mh in a corner apartment on the 4th floor with no air conditioning )

Theres no way you'll find a closed loop pump that adds less heat to your tank than a stream style powerhead.



A Tinymight is more efficient, and quieter than a 1262

[ediaz]

I have a hatchery and use them, they work fine with salt water, but make a lot of noise when get old 2 years+. The seal must be changed to SS and it will last years no risk of electric shock. They draw a lot of electric and heat the water.Big wholesalers ,hatcheries and public aquariums have used them for decades.

Pentair Aquatics a big Pool/ spa filtration co. has a division for aquariums and uses the same pumps slighty modified.

just my 1 cent, had to use the other one to pay for electric

Ed

[Crusty Old Shellback]

I had one on my 400G tank for a while. Worked just fine. Only reason I change dit out for a sequence was the electrical consumption. Other than that, no problems.


For a small take like the 30, you may want to rethink things. On my 72G bowfront, I only use a Eheim for a return pump (1100 GPH) w/ a SCWD attached to the output and a eductor on each output to help increase flow. Has been working just fine for years. No other flow pumps or devices are used on this tank.

[RichConley]

Guys, a tinymite is an 80w EXTERNAL pump. Its not going to add all that much heat. Much less than a Eheim 1262.

http://www.spa-pack.com/tinymite.html

[jaysonsd]

I really appreciate everyone's input, I keep running on stuff I glean from the forums so I certainly could be misinformed. What I'm aiming for is this: around 36 - 40x turnover an hour with random flow. I want ~4-6x through the 10 gallon sump and the rest made with a closed loop. According to the head loss calc I can do that w/ a pump rated ~1000gph and the Rio 2100 I have for the sump return. The guy who made this setup insulated the cabinet inside and put his closed loop pump down there. But it was one big in-sump and he had to get a chiller to maintain the temp.

The scwd's will be modded: one with a 1.5" inlet and 1" outlets (for the closed loop) and the other will be 1" in and outlet for the sump return.

I keep thinking in-sump pumps = waaaaay heat increase, mixed in closed canopy with 150w MH and then I'll have to start looking for chillers, and its only a 30 gal.

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but what about Iwaki's or Quiet One's? They are supposed to be pretty quiet.

Jayson

[jaysonsd]

Originally posted by ediaz
I have a hatchery and use them, they work fine with salt water, but make a lot of noise when get old 2 years+. The seal must be changed to SS and it will last years no risk of electric shock.

Ed, what's a SS?

[Wryknow]

How exactly are you going to mod the SCWD? You can add adaptors to the input/output but the flow will still be restricted by the internal mechanism ofthe SCWD.

Iwaki is a great pump but too noisy for me to use under a tank. My wife would never let me get away with one of those in our living room! You may have a different situation though so saying whether or not its noisy is pretty subjective.

The Quiet One has the same issue as the E-heim (and all other internal/external pumps.) Yes, it can be plumbed externally, but that doesn't really matter because it uses the water flowing through it to keep the motor cool. Internal or external you're still transfering almost the same amount of heat, plus now you're running the risk of having your tank drain out onto the floor if the gasket on the internal/external pump breaks.

Using a RIO for a return pump is begging for a disaster IMHO. They are not well known for their reliability.

That 150W MH bulb in a closed canopy is what's going to kill your heat. You may have problems no matter what you do to be quite honest.

[DarG]

External pumps dont all heat the water to an equal extent. There are actually external pumps like the Velocity pumps that directly use the water that they are pumping to cool the motors. Other externals, most externals for that matter, use a fan on top and inside the motor housing to air cool the pumps motor. The standard PanWorld pumps are an example. They do transfer some heat through the volute to the water and friction also contributes to heating the water. But they dont directly heat the water like a water cooled pump does. The water cooled pumps generally heat the water to a larger degree, a signifigantly larger degree in some cases, than the air cooled external pumps.

[aaron7405]

Originally posted by Wryknow

Iwaki is a great pump but too noisy for me to use under a tank. My wife would never let me get away with one of those in our living room! You may have a different situation though so saying whether or not its noisy is pretty subjective.

I have an IWAKI and its really quite if it runs with the Japan motor, you can put some rubber in the scre holes to vibrations and you my wanto to put a PC fan direct to the pump to keep it coller and will live longer.

I wouldn´t go with the jacuzzi

[RichConley]

Originally posted by DarG
External pumps dont all heat the water to an equal extent. There are actually external pumps like the Velocity pumps that directly use the water that they are pumping to cool the motors. Other externals, most externals for that matter, use a fan on top and inside the motor housing to air cool the pumps motor. The standard PanWorld pumps are an example. They do transfer some heat through the volute to the water and friction also contributes to heating the water. But they dont directly heat the water like a water cooled pump does. The water cooled pumps generally heat the water to a larger degree, a signifigantly larger degree in some cases, than the air cooled external pumps.

Right, but even the water cooled externals aren't as bad as submersibles.... and the TinyMite isnt water cooled.

[DarG]

Originally posted by RichConley
Right, but even the water cooled externals aren't as bad as submersibles.... and the TinyMite isnt water cooled.

That wasnt my point. I was responding to the post above mine which suggested that all externals were the same.

Obviously putting 80 watt pump into the tank water, it's going to transfer more heat to the water than simply pumping water thorugh the 80 watt pump that sits outside of the tank.

[jaysonsd]

Well, I've already decided I'm taking the jacuzzi back from the guy I bought it from. I guess I'll have to rethink things. Fans work really well from my experience. I nuke my pico with a 70w MH that's about 4-5 inches from the surface, but its open air on legs, much easier to blow the heat away than a closed canopy. Get to that mountain when I get there, I haven't had time yet to even repaint the stand and canopy (cherry stained yuck).

As for the scwd mod, the main problem with the thing is the 3/8" out and inlets. Sawed off the bottom and exopied a 1.5" pvc and sawed off the sides and exopied 1". The mechanism should rotate slower because the flow is less directed at the mechanism but at least the flow restriction issue has been reduced, assuming it works .

We'll see how the RIO does, if its a problem, there's a siphon break.

Being a little stubborn, but this was how the tank was designed, have to kinda work within those parameters.

Jayson

[Wryknow]

Well, some well placed fans can do wonders. You can always put a 4" hole in each end and add a couple of fans to the canopy. That should make a big difference. I understand that sometimes you've just got to save money where you can.