Strange SPS death

rydr119 · #1 10/01/2007, 04:54 PM

So I haven't been doing this for very long but I had a few problems about 8 months ago with my 65gal reef tank where all of my sps just started dying completly overnight. So I didn't make any new additions for about 2 months and I thought I had everything under control but I think I might be wrong. I have 1 very large colony of Acropora that has been doing awesome and growing like crazy and I have a few other very small frags of different acro's that are doing well as far as I can tell. All of a sudden some of the small
(about 3) frags I have had for about 3 months are starting to turn white from the top down. Its strange b/c the bottom halves of these frags are open and look great.I haven't moved them, I haven't changed my bulb since its only about 5 months old. I test the water and everything is within limits. Any suggestions on what to do? It seems to be a slow process that this is occuring.
Please help
Thanks Gina

wentreefgirl · #2 10/01/2007, 05:24 PM

Have you done anything with water clarity lately. Water changes, chemi clean or carbon??

rydr119 · #3 10/01/2007, 06:57 PM

I do water changes about every 2 weeks and I run Chemi pure-elite every 4 weeks.

Canarygirl · #4 10/03/2007, 12:48 PM

wentreefgirl,

Is it your experience that a sudden increase in water clarity can stress corals to the point of TN? Such as by adding a large amount of carbon to a tank that hasn't had carbon before?

I had some mysterious SPS deaths over the summer and one of the things that I did during that time was change carbon brands from Kent to EVC, which has a much smaller grain and more surface area.

mysterybox · #5 10/03/2007, 08:01 PM

please state your params & test kits that you use

rydr119 · #6 10/04/2007, 09:37 AM

I use Salifert tests for my Alkalinity and Calcium, and I use Natureef for magnesium and total hardness, and I use Aquarium pharmaceuticals for my Nitrates, pH ect. Also every once in a while I have my LFS test my water just in case I mess up. I have't changed brands of my carbon I have always used Chemipure Elite, and for all my other supplements I use Seachem.

mysterybox · #7 10/04/2007, 09:43 AM

What are your results? do you have any hair algae and cyno? Do you know phosphates?

mysterybox · #8 10/04/2007, 09:46 AM

a 20 gallon refugium should take care of phosphates & nitrates on a 65, however, unless you are overfeeding (do you have any fish?), or it's not healthy.

mysterybox · #9 10/04/2007, 09:51 AM

If it's not lighting, then it's flow, if it's not flow, then it's water quality, or lastly, disease &/or bugs. From top down is what I get when my phosphates are higher than .024. Do you use a phosphate reactor? What about Alk & Calcium. Have you checked for red bugs & flatworms? How is your flow?
The answer should be there!

ycnibrc · #10 10/04/2007, 12:33 PM

sps is all about stability dirty or clean. But when you change something drasticly such as new bulb,new carbon,new phosphate media,more flow....ect some sps will react negatively. I have seen some tank that have aptesia and algea all over but the coral still thriving since it has been in that environment for a long time. So if you change something in your tank do it slowly or in small amount even change out carbon or phosphate media.

rydr119 · #11 10/04/2007, 03:14 PM

My calcium is 400, Alk is 9.1, no phosphates and I do run phosphate media, I have looked for red bugs and I had a friend look and neither of us saw any, no flat worms. I do have fish but I feed every 2 to 3 days and not very much. No hair algae or cyano. I think I might be flow. I do have 2 tuxedo urchins and they sometimes move my power heads . But would flow take that long to present as a problem for me to notice?

mysterybox · #12 10/04/2007, 05:20 PM

flow issues can sometimes take a some time to visably see it's effects because you still have some flow, just not enough. Also, sometimes the issue is compounded because there is more than one issue at the same time, and only when flow became a problem did the issues become a visable problem. Fix the flow, but still be aware that all issues might not be fixed. I think I'm rambling now, so pm me if you need clarification?
Ralph

rydr119 · #13 10/04/2007, 06:08 PM

Thanks for all the help. I hope my re-arranging my power heads does the tirck.

power boat jim · #14 10/04/2007, 10:13 PM

If the lights are a single MH bulb see if the bulb is cracked. If it is, you have probably found the cause for the top down bleaching.

muzz · #15 10/04/2007, 10:22 PM

are these frags or colonies with problems wild acros or aquacultured pieces? I have experienced wild acros doing great for a month or two or six, then dying for no apparant reason at all. Have never had a problem with any aqua/maricultured pieces though(knock on wood). I no longer buy any wild specimans, as I do not think it is worth it. just something to think about.

Canarygirl · #16 10/04/2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

are these frags or colonies with problems wild acros or aquacultured pieces? I have experienced wild acros doing great for a month or two or six, then dying for no apparant reason at all. Have never had a problem with any aqua/maricultured pieces though(knock on wood). I no longer buy any wild specimans, as I do not think it is worth it. just something to think about

boy, ain't that the truth! I had never noticed this pattern until mysterybox pointed it out to me. It is SO true...for me anyway.

five.five-six · #17 10/04/2007, 10:31 PM

the crucial perams i am not seeing from you are ph and temp, and theyere overall swing day to night. also what is your sg.

mysterybox · #18 10/04/2007, 10:40 PM

Hey Canarygirl! How have ya been! I'm glad someone brought that up to gina (wild verses aquacultured), I missed that one this time! See ya around!

Canarygirl · #19 10/04/2007, 10:48 PM

I'm doing good, Ralph.

My alkalinity has really settled down after getting a decent regulator/solonoid with needle valve. No more coral TN....whew

mysterybox · #20 10/04/2007, 10:52 PM

awesome!

mysterybox · #21 10/04/2007, 10:59 PM

Hey canarygirl! I just lost my rose millie due to phosphates/nitrates. phosphates were at .063 & nitrates at 1. I thought it was flow(my millie had micro bubbles on it's tips, so I thought they were coming from the sump) since I had just changed to tunze streams, and I couldn't figure out the best setting............when it wasn't the settings at all! (well a little, flow was a little low which exasperated the issue). Anyway, all are moving in the right direction again! All corals have recovered and are back on track! _ _ it happens! Later, & goodnight to all!

stony_corals · #22 10/05/2007, 10:42 AM

Nitrates do not kill corals...., especially at 1ppm. Phosphates are not likely to have killed at that level either.

Gina, how new are you bulbs? Did you change lighting during the time these corals were introduced? What about temperature ranges? Have you hit 86+ degrees?

With a Radium, the light spectrum is dominated by blues (420, 450). If you're water had a very high amount of organics, then you added a lot of carbon, you could have seriously shocked your corals.... How much carbon are you using?

How stable is your alkalinity. pH normally swings, don't worry about that. I'd seriously consider a different alk test kit if you are serious about sps. The Saliferts have had some issues lately, lamotte is really good.

mysterybox · #23 10/05/2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stony_corals
Nitrates do not kill corals...., especially at 1ppm. Phosphates are not likely to have killed at that level either.

Gina, how new are you bulbs? Did you change lighting during the time these corals were introduced? What about temperature ranges? Have you hit 86+ degrees?

With a Radium, the light spectrum is dominated by blues (420, 450). If you're water had a very high amount of organics, then you added a lot of carbon, you could have seriously shocked your corals.... How much carbon are you using?

How stable is your alkalinity. pH normally swings, don't worry about that. I'd seriously consider a different alk test kit if you are serious about sps. The Saliferts have had some issues lately, lamotte is really good.

Many chemists would disagree w your generalized opinion that phosphates didn't kill my millie? Funny, but i don't remember you diagnosing my tank? But I'm sure with all the testing and info that u have aquired about my tank, I'm sure u r correct!

stony_corals · #24 10/05/2007, 01:44 PM

It wasn't until PO4 reached 2ppm that calcification stopped in S pistillata.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

While your millepora wasn't most likely calcifying at an optimal rate, it didn't necessarily kill it.

mysterybox · #25 10/05/2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stony_corals
It wasn't until PO4 reached 2ppm that calcification stopped in S pistillata.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

While your millepora wasn't most likely calcifying at an optimal rate, it didn't necessarily kill it.

you need to read the whole article and it's context:

For example, one research group found that long-term enrichment of phosphate (0.19 ppm; maintained for three hours per day) on a natural patch reef on the Great Barrier Reef inhibited overall coral calcification by 43%.6 A second team found effects in several Acropora species at similar concentrations.8

Organic phosphate and phosphonate inhibitors of calcification have also been studied and probably work by a similar mechanism. Etidronate, a bisphosphonate that is used to treat osteoporosis (Figure 3), caused a 36% inhibition of calcification in Stylophora pistillata at 2 ppm, and stopped it completely (99%) at 100 ppm, while photosynthesis was not impacted at these, and higher, concentrations (indicating it is not a general toxin).9

My suggestion is for aquarists to target a phosphate concentration of 0.02 ppm phosphate, or less. Here is a list of ways that many aquarists export phosphorus and maintain appropriate phosphate levels.

Anyway, how about we agree to disagree? I need to focus my time and energy elseware! Thanks!