using seawater in my reef tank

[Chrigui]

i am working on a new reef tank this week:

tank 100g in wall

sump 75g + refu.

propagation tank is 30g.

i saw the http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=5

he used a method of getting sea water to his tank.


please share with me any information. i am going to get a water sample and make a test today night.

any one has tried ?

Help !!!

[Julio]

i wouldn't recomend it since natural sea water will harbor lots of parasites, if you do use it i would run it through some uv first.

[jiperalta]

I use natural seawater from about 20 yds out roughly once per six weeks (1/3 water changes). So far no problems (I don't go out w/in 72 hrs of storm event or if there is junk in the water), and the corals seem to appreciate it. I just dunk a six gallon water jug in the water as far down as I can go.

[thor32766]

The are quite a few people here in florida that do it and have no problems. after getting the water tested should tell you alot.

[Chrigui]

thanks guys for sharing opinions and facts. i just came from the sea side and i tested the water here we go:

salinity: 1.031
ALK: 1.9-2.1
PH: 8.4 / 8.6
NO2: 0.1
NO3 0.0
Ammonia: 0.5
phosphate: 0.0
Calcium 400-460

i got the bottle at 4 pm and i made the test at 12:30 AM it had 2 sweet snails i collect when i got the water (free !!)

i am also thinking to run the UV and OZONE on the sea water before i introduce it to the tank.

[billsreef]

Just course filter the water through some filter floss or a coffee filter if your worried about particulates. Use it right away, or store for it for minimum of two weeks in the dark to allow any plankton to die off and resulting ammonia spikes to be taken care of by the bacteria. Don't take water from a harbor or marina and you should be fine. After all, artificial sea salt mixes are mans best attempt of recreating the real deal, so using the real deal from a clean area is the best

[davidryder]

Well you can't really test for parasites and I wouldn't feel comfortable getting water anywhere inside of 5 miles of shore.

Also natural seawater degrades much faster than synthetic

Read here about synthetic salt vs natural seawater

[billsreef]

Originally posted by davidryder
Also natural seawater degrades much faster than synthetic

Read here about synthetic salt vs natural seawater

It's a wonder anything is alive in the ocean I know Fenner is making some statements of opinion as if they are fact, but some of that is laughable. Are there micro organisms in real SW, of course, and it's really not that hard to manage them. Is real SW buffered higher than natural levels as in salt mixes, of course not, and it's easy to add buffer. Besides, most people still use buffers when using artificial salt mixes. Do you need to make larger and or more frequent water changes when using real SW? Not at all. Does real SW degrade faster than artificial? Well the real stuff is millions of years old already

I've used both real SW and artificial salt mixes for several decades. IME good clean real SW can't be beat. That's not saying artificial mixes are no good, they can be convient and do work. However, to say real SW doesn't work has been proven wrong by many of us that actually use real SW. In fact it works quite well. After all, would Scripts bother pumping real SW if artificial salt mix was better?

Here's a photo of one side of a 20,000 gallon live reef tank at Atlantis Marine World. It is run with real SW



Kind of hard to argue with results like that

[davidryder]

I'm a little surprised that that entire article was dismissed with one picture.

There were 9 other resources listed at the bottom of that article that supported the argument.

And scripts uses SW that is continually recirculated. Besides that water in the ocean is filtered slightly different than water in our aquariums. I'm not saying that natural SW can't work but from what I've read there are elevated risks and you get just as good results - or better - from using synthetic water.

With synthetic salt there is no chance of putting something in my tank that I don't want in there. A simple test for nitrates/nitrites/etc isn't going to reveal pollution in the water. I guess I'm just a little paranoid when it comes to my aquarium.

[billsreef]

Originally posted by davidryder
I'm a little surprised that that entire article was dismissed with one picture.

Twas late I'd elaborate more, but I've got to head to work and will away for the weekend so won't be able to get back to this discussion for awhile. However, I will leave a couple more quick thoughts. I've been using natural SW for several decades (I'm starting to feel old here ) and my experiences do not support Fenner's article. The aquarium I mentioned above uses natural seawater throughout their entire facility, not just the reef tank. They are well funded and could have easily supported using artificial seawater instead of buying a tank truck and trucking water from Shinnecock Inlet several miles away if artificial was really better. I'd say that whole facility does an excellent job of supporting real SW as quite viable in a closed system, using tanks ranging from small 20 gallon broodstock tanks up to a huge shark tank

[Chrigui]

most national aquariums they use sea water directly 1st because of the cost 2nd less

maintenance , today morning i was setting with the administrator of the KUWAIT NATIONAL AQUARIUM holding more than 3 million gallons cut into 14 tanks 1 of them is 1.2 million with 9 sharks so, he said nothing is better but they use a stratigy
of saving the water for 13days in the dark and run the UV before the water change,

the juice of the meeting was sea water is much better and healthier.

but i am still reading about it please share documents, photos or anything related.

[davidryder]

Yeah I would like to read more about it also... I didn't find much online - maybe I wasn't searching for the right thing.

I've read a couple places about the degradation time of NSW being faster than synthetic water but if you have the means to recirculate it as fast and effortlessly as big aquariums it would probably be the better choice.

I have access to NSW but I just wouldn't know where to pull it from - and then there would be the hassle of moving it, carrying it my stairs and storing it/running it through a UV filter for a couple weeks. Living an apartment makes that pretty much impractical.

But still I would like to read some more definitive articles on the subject. I'm aware that many people have used NSW for years with no consequence but I'm sure if a cost analysis was done NSW would end up costing more in the long run.

Bill if that's your tank it's very beautiful. Is there any more info on it (build log)?

[Putawaywet]

I can't help but notice....

That this debate has been raging for quite some time now. And year after year it's still the same argument: those in favor claim there's nothing better than the real deal, and those against, never fail to bring up the parasite/contanimants issue.

Yet every year tons of live rock is placed into hobby tanks with little more thought than what price per pound it can be had for.

Which I find curious because in all my years I've never actually seen the location where any of my live rock has come from. I mean, places like Tonga, and the Marshall Islands are relatively non-specific descriptions. For all I know my rock might have been collected by some local who relieved himself just moments before picking it up off the sea floor a few hundreds yards away from a couple rusting container ships that ran aground over a decade earlier.

Brett

[davidryder]

Originally posted by Putawaywet
I can't help but notice....

That this debate has been raging for quite some time now. And year after year it's still the same argument: those in favor claim there's nothing better than the real deal, and those against, never fail to bring up the parasite/contanimants issue.

Yet every year tons of live rock is placed into hobby tanks with little more thought than what price per pound it can be had for.

Which I find curious because in all my years I've never actually seen the location where any of my live rock has come from. I mean, places like Tonga, and the Marshall Islands are relatively non-specific descriptions. For all I know my rock might have been collected by some local who relieved himself just moments before picking it up off the sea floor a few hundreds yards away from a couple rusting container ships that ran aground over a decade earlier.

Brett

Except NONE of this live rock goes straight from the ocean to someones tank... it takes weeks or months before it hits someones tank.

And not only that, but think of all the hitch hikers that are introduced into our tanks from live rock and the number of threads that subsequently pop up to get advice on how to eradicate those hitchers. Although the parasites/creatures that are introduced by NSW may be easy to take care of I would rather not even concern myself with it.

Aside from all that, what is the argument for NSW? My Dodge Nitro gets 20mpg and I live about 20 miles from a beach. Even filling the Nitro with NSW in containers I would spend about $6 hauling it alone. Now add the price of the containers, UV, labor, and weeks it takes to filter it properly is it really worth it?

With no recorded results indicating that NSW is better than synthetic we will have to deal with them - at best - being equal. That said, what justifies all the extra effort to haul all this water around?

And besides that how do you determine the source you are getting the NSW from is not contaminated? It was mentioned but not addressed. I would rather spend $40 on a 4-month supply of salt to be able to do everything in my home - rather than driving, loading, hauling, storing, filtering just to get some water.

IMO it's less practical and more expensive than synthetic mixes.

[booie]

seems to me the people that say "dont use it" never have used it. the people that do use it, love it.....ive been using it and corals love it....i treat it like this......
step one.....collect
step two.....raise temp.....dump in, no filtering for me

[Justjoe]

Originally posted by davidryder

Bill if that's your tank it's very beautiful. Is there any more info on it (build log)?

NSW from an area that receives even a small amount of tidal flushing will work fine. If its a bit cloudy, just mechanically filter it. I ran my home tanks on it for years and now collect water for Atlantis in the very same spot. It is a great excuse to get out to the beach with the kids, go fishing, etc. Just look in the water where you are collecting and see how much life is doing just fine there
I'm not aware of what paper you're citing, etc but for those who dismiss NSW... well lets just say they are not well versed in what they're talking about in that regard.
Thanks Bill for showing my tank to help prove the cause, and more info on it can be found at:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium

[Putawaywet]

That's not entirely true about rock. While rock may sit around for a while, it certainly isn't sitting around drying out in the sun. So if it's showing up at your door wet then it's definitely not sterile.

And while I can apprciate you wanting to see 'data' before relegating either to anything more than equal, I have seen both in action (both in the commercial sector and the home front) and I can say without a doubt that when given the option I will choose NSW each and every time. Synthetics while relatively decent, are still a concoction of a chemist followed by a manufacturing process, and as such are subject to quality control issues just like anything else. If you want to talk risk then it's only fair we discuss a certain salt fiasco from several years back. How many hobbyists took it in the shorts when bad batches of salt suddenly hit store shelves. How many tanks were wiped out? How many hundreds, if not thousands, of acroporids were losts until someone figure out what was causing it?

As for your cost/time analysis, time and money is very subjective. I live 3 miles from the beach and if I had a truck with a large holding tank and I knew I could dip a hose some place that was free of runoff and pollutants I'd do it in a heartbeat. No aging, no filtering - just verify parameters and add it right in. For a 300 gal tank I could certainly justify the cost when balanced against having large quanities of salt shipped to my house. Even more so when I factored in my time to mix it and the added expense of making all that R.O. water.

Brett

Originally posted by davidryder
Except NONE of this live rock goes straight from the ocean to someones tank... it takes weeks or months before it hits someones tank.

And not only that, but think of all the hitch hikers that are introduced into our tanks from live rock and the number of threads that subsequently pop up to get advice on how to eradicate those hitchers. Although the parasites/creatures that are introduced by NSW may be easy to take care of I would rather not even concern myself with it.

Aside from all that, what is the argument for NSW? My Dodge Nitro gets 20mpg and I live about 20 miles from a beach. Even filling the Nitro with NSW in containers I would spend about $6 hauling it alone. Now add the price of the containers, UV, labor, and weeks it takes to filter it properly is it really worth it?

With no recorded results indicating that NSW is better than synthetic we will have to deal with them - at best - being equal. That said, what justifies all the extra effort to haul all this water around?

And besides that how do you determine the source you are getting the NSW from is not contaminated? It was mentioned but not addressed. I would rather spend $40 on a 4-month supply of salt to be able to do everything in my home - rather than driving, loading, hauling, storing, filtering just to get some water.

IMO it's less practical and more expensive than synthetic mixes.

[davidryder]

I never said live rock is sterile - just the oppisite actually.

Anyway, I was thinking that it would be more convenient to get pre-mixed saltwater while I'm at the beach - waterchanges would probably be easier if I'm at the beach anyway. But before I try it I guess I would like to know a little more.

Cloudiness: Is this going to make my tank cloudy? How can it be avoided? Is it something you just deal with?

Labor: I go to the beach a lot - day and night so I could justify the labor part of it... I've got 2 10g buckets I guess I could use those

Pollutants: How do you test for these? How do you know there wasn't a spill before you show up to pump water out? Is it really as simple as eyeing it? How far should I go out to get the water?

Treatment: Some say treat it some say don't... how do some people decide one over the other?

If I have to let the water sit for any period of time it can't be worth it because it would have to sit in my living room.

[Justjoe]

Originally posted by davidryder
I never said live rock is sterile - just the oppisite actually.

Anyway, I was thinking that it would be more convenient to get pre-mixed saltwater while I'm at the beach - waterchanges would probably be easier if I'm at the beach anyway. But before I try it I guess I would like to know a little more.

Cloudiness: Is this going to make my tank cloudy? How can it be avoided? Is it something you just deal with?

Labor: I go to the beach a lot - day and night so I could justify the labor part of it... I've got 2 10g buckets I guess I could use those

Pollutants: How do you test for these? How do you know there wasn't a spill before you show up to pump water out? Is it really as simple as eyeing it? How far should I go out to get the water?

Treatment: Some say treat it some say don't... how do some people decide one over the other?

If I have to let the water sit for any period of time it can't be worth it because it would have to sit in my living room.

Most people make the use of NSW more complicated then it needs to be. One, just look in the water and see if there is a diversity of life. Two, if there is a somewhat decent tidal flow, no real worries about pollutants. If there are heavy rains, you may want to wait a few tidal cycles. Three, the main thing to worry about, and this is in more tropical regions are the potential red tide events, and even with those, you just wait out a few tidal cycles for it to be flushed out.
If you can go offshore, that is good, but otherwise shoreline collection is just fine.
On my home tank years ago, if the NSW was turbid from high wind/ wave action, I would just let containers of water settle overnight, then siphon off leaving an inch or two of water in the container with the detritus.
If there are "some" pollutants, your filtration like carbon, etc will readily remove anything of concern.
A small bilge pump to a car battery or one of those portable jumper units works well for pumping water into your containers so it saves your back.

[davidryder]

Ok, next time I'm due for a water change I'm going to give it a try.

[roblack]

I use both NSW and mixed salt water, have been using NSW for over a year now with no noticeable problems. In fact, my tank and the SPS and LPS seem to do better with NSW. Yes, there are countless microorganisms in NSW, which I believe feed the coral. The NSW I use comes from my LFS, and they obtain their water from a ship that travels miles off-shore and drops a pipe down several meters to pump the water. In-shop, they circulate the water until sale. I live on Miami Beach, and wouldn't add beach water to my tank because of the pollutants, but feel good about the quality of water from off-shore and below the surface.

[RuhiA]

And scripts uses SW that is continually recirculated.

And they generously share it with keepers. There is a faucet by the pier where you can fill up your containers. It is the same NSW goes into the tanks up at the displays including the kelp "forest" display. If it is good for Scripts, it is good for anyone else too but they process it before they use it.

[Time4chillie]

I use natural sea water in my 110 gal mixed reef. to be honest i have had much better success using water from the ocean than making my own. having the macro algae, micro algae, and consistancy with ocean water is hard to beat. i have never had a single problem with parasites,diseases, harmfull algae.

[tbar]

I did my first water change today using NSW after reading this thread last night. I did 25 gal on my 125, just waded out to chest level depth off of VA. Beach. I have been thinking about it for a while and it's not much further of a drive to the beach as it is to the LFS to get RO water and saltmix. Don't think I'll be going out there when the water gets real cold. Surprised that the salinity was only 1.020. Perhaps that had something to do with the tide as it was low and I know I should get it at high tide for now on. So added some salt, the PH was good and alk was little low at 7 dkh. That was good for me as mine in the tank was high. I'm on vacation this week and think I will do it again near the end of the week. Didn't really want to get a RO unit so this will hopefully be a good alternative for me.

[surfjeepzx]

I've never used anything but NSW from day one. I've never had any ill effects. I just recently added another 55 gal drum and now perform 110 gal changes every couple or so weeks and my tank's only 135 gallons. I use a 1500 gph pump to fill the drums and from the time I get there to the time I leave it takes about 20 minutes max to fill the drums. That's rolling out the hose and hooking the cables to the battery. I do use a particulate filter initially when pumping to the drums but that's it. Once home the water goes direct to the tank.

I turn off the recirc pumps and return pumps.
Then I use a garden hose to siphon about 25% of the water from the tank which leaves some corals exposed near the surface.
I use another garden hose to fill water in the sump. When the sump is full I turn the return pump on and pump water into the display. I keep doing this until the diplay and sump is full. Then I let the tank run as normal for about 10 minutes and repeat until the entire 110 gal's are used. You wanna see happy corals? The corals extend polyps like they're reaching for the stars. If corals could smile then that's how they do it.

Now for the common sense part. I don't collect water in the middle of a red tide like we had here last week. Nor when there's lots of bird activity during certain migratory times of year. Bird poop tends to not be good. Nor immediately following a rain storm, usually the next day is good. Nor during outgoing tide since I pump within an inlet. And lastly I dont pump if for any reason I pull up and the water just doesn't look right.

I know I overdue my water changes but sometimes I may go a month and other times when the water is pristine I'll do changes every 2 weeks. So they tend to balance out.