Noobie needs advice, mostly with algae problems

leoslizards · #1 12/28/2007, 09:24 AM

Hi guys. I'm pretty new to this hobby. I started my first SW tank exactly two months and one week ago. In the past two weeks I have been experiencing an algae problem. I'm not sure what kind of algae it is but it looks similar to blue/green algae you get in freshwater tanks. The slimy filmy stuff. As well as some similar reddish burgundy colored algae. It was just on a rock and slowly started to spread. At first I kind of liked it, it gave the tank some color, but in the past week it started to spread like crazy! It's creeping onto the sand now and doesn't look so attractive anymore. It's covering almost 1/3 of my tank.

I have a 29g tall tank (I think) with a standard HOB filter, a heater, an air pump with a 8" bubble wand/air stone, and a standard fluorescent lighting (20w, 10,000k I think). About an inch of sand and ?lbs of rock. Not sure what kind of rock (live?, dead?, don't know), and a fake resin rock/coral.

The inhabitants consist of:
1X Clown fish (Percula I think)
1X Royal Gramma Basslet
1X Firefish Goby
1X Emerald Crab
6X Dwarf Blue Leg Hermit Crabs
They are all under 2" in size.

The last time I checked the water parameters was about one and a half months ago before I added the first fish. I didn't have anything to test the water with so I took a sample to my LFS to get some answers.
The water parameters back then where:
PH 8.4
SG 18%
Temp 78F
(Not much info but what can you expect from Petsmart

)

Since then I have not tested the water. I just got an API Saltwater Test Kit a few days ago but I still haven't gotten a refractometer. I plan on getting one next month. I also plan on testing the water later on today.

I have included some pics to help ID the algae. Hope this helps.

Sorry for the poor image quality. Some aquarium photo capturing tips would be greatly appreciated.

I also have a couple more questions that may or may not have something to do with the algae.
I'm pretty sure that the algae could be caused by poor circulation and water quality. I'm working on it.

Someone told me to get two Maxi-Jet Powerheads 1200 (295 gph) and place one on each corner of the tank. I was thinking of getting two Hydor Koralia 1 Pumps (400 gph) instead. They cost about the same and the Koralia consumes less energy. 3.5w as opposed to 20w and it might be smaller as well. The 1200 has a air line inlet which is an advantage over the Koralia though. I currently have an air pump with an 8" bubble wand to help with the circulation and oxygen a bit (you can see it in the pics). I read somewhere that air stones are bad because they raise the ph levels, is this true? Should this be something I shouldn't take lightly?

I also forgot to mention that I also have some brown algae on the glass and some type of hair algae on the rocks. I just scrape off the brown algae with a mag float and the emerald crab keeps the hair type algae under control. Which brings me to my next question. My clean up crew consists of the 2" Emerald Crab and the 6 Blue Leg Hermit Crabs. What else can I add to my cleaning army to help improve my tank and water conditions? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind that I only have a 29 tank so space is limited. I don't mind having something nice like a blue starfish though, I'll just trade it in for a smaller one when it outgrows my tank. I plan to add two Scarlet Skunk Cleaner Shrimp and a Bloodred Shrimp later on when I raise my SG to the proper levels so they must be compatible with each other. I was thinking maybe some snails but I don't know what kind or how many?

I have store credit at a LFS so I want to use it before it expires and I can get some things like urchins and other animals for free from my uncle's friend (manager at a South Florida SW Fish Distributor). The only thing I have paid for is the Royal gramma and my cleaning crew. I had to sell a couple fish he gave me because of compatibility issues.

I plan on getting something later on today like snails but I need your help first to help me pick out something appropriate.

Thanks for all your help in advanced,

Leo

dileggi · #2 12/28/2007, 09:34 AM

Well, the reddish looking stuff is cyano, not algae. Cyano is a bacteria and is quite normal in new tanks and it should cycle out. I would test the water as well, because it can also come from high nitrates and high phosphates.

You can use a turkey baster to blast away the cyano that's laying on the sand and rock and scoop it out with a net. It won't get rid of it, but it will help to make it look cleaner. You can also buy red slime remover, which will work. But, I've been told not to use that on a newer tank unless the tank is at least 6 mos old. As an FYI, my tank is only 3 mos old and I've used it a few times with no problem.

I would definitely suggest testing the water to get your own parameters.

As for the algae, some snails will eat it, but the easiest way is to either pick it off or simply turn off the tank lights for one or two days, which will get rid of the algae, but only short term.

jgrantham7 · #3 12/28/2007, 09:39 AM

I agree with Eric.
Looks like a cyano bloom (I'm currently fighting one myself.)

Try to siphon some of the worst patches off, then do regular water changes. Astrea and Trocchus snails should help keep some of the algae under control.

This is normal in a new tank. If the problem persists, you'll need to find the nutrient source for the algae. Common solutions are to get an RO/DI unit for your water, and to install a Phosphate reactor.

papagimp · #4 12/28/2007, 09:41 AM

Defaintly cyno and some other alga, no biggie though, it's only a two month old tank and this is right about the time for it. Just keep up on water changes, TEST YOUR OWN WATER, and test for more than what you listed, get a phosphate kit as well, keep an eye on nitrates levels, keep both low to zero. Other than that, don't overfeed and be patient, should go away with a little time and patience, Probably going to start seeing hair algae, bryopsis and similar strains of aglae popping up after this, so expect that and don't worry over it either. Happens to the best of us.

No need for chemical removal products either, and syphon out what you can when doing water changes or as needed. Don't let it coat over any corals in the tank, it'll cause them to suffocate.

And finally, go get a few books on the subject of keeping saltwater reef tanks, research the nitrogen cycle and learn it. Sounds like you pretty much ignored that aspect and started stocking the tank. The more you can learn, the easier this hobby will be.

dileggi · #5 12/28/2007, 09:44 AM

As for the clean up crew, I use the blue legged hermits, scarlet hermits, turbo snails and nassarius snails. The nassarius snails will pretty much take care of the sand bed. The turbos seem to do a decent job on the rocks and glass, but they definitely do not completely clean it. Or, I just don't have enough.

As for water circulation, I was told that algae grows where there is a lot of water circulation, not poor circulation. I currently have a Koralia1, and the power head from my sump. My total flow is approx 716.

A good rule of thumb is to have your flow at least 10x's the tank volume. Depending on what's in the tank, more of the experienced people on here seem to go closer to 20-40x's tank volume.

As for the airstones, that I am not sure. I believe they create more oxygen in the water, which may affect the PH, but I am not sure of that. A good salt mix should buffer it well for you, or you can buy Marine Buffer. I know Kent Marine makes one and just follow the directions. I don't use an airstone, so I'm not sure, but I really don't think it would hurt.

What you would want to shoot for, IMO for water parameters would be:

PH - 8.2
Amonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - Below 20 - the lower the better
Salinity - 1.023
Phosphate - 0
Calcium - 400-450
dKH - 9-12

You could also try getting a phosban bag and some Amquel. The Amquel will help keep your amonia, nitrites and nitrates down and the phosban will help keep the phosphate problem.

Also, what kind of water are you using in the tank? Tap, spring, distilled, RO/DI?

navychief · #6 12/28/2007, 09:48 AM

I have to ask. Did you say if you have a skimmer?

Avi · #7 12/28/2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leoslizards
...I have been experiencing an algae problem. I'm not sure what kind of algae it is but it looks similar to blue/green algae you get in freshwater tanks. The slimy filmy stuff. As well as some similar reddish burgundy colored algae...

Leo, from the looks of things in the photo, there's a mixture of the "reddish burgundy colored algae," which isn't really algae but instead is cyanobacteria, and the "blue/green algae." This isn't to be unexpected with a tank the age of yours. Still, there's apparently too much by way of nitrates/phosphates in the tank so cut back on feedings and also increase the frequency of water changes using a good RO-water source.

Quote:

Originally posted by leoslizards
I have a 29g tall tank (I think) with a standard HOB filter, a heater, an air pump with a 8" bubble wand/air stone, and a standard fluorescent lighting (20w, 10,000k I think). About an inch of sand and ?lbs of rock. Not sure what kind of rock (live?, dead?, don't know), and a fake resin rock/coral....

Hmmm, well...you seem to be running your setup more like a freshwater tank. I guess it can be done, but with the kind of livestock you have, which will no doubt increase, that isn't very efficient to support a reef or even a FOWLR. The hangon filter's really not ideal and, IMO, it would be much better if you increased the amount of "real" live rock and you replaced that hand-on filter with a good quality hang on protein skimmer if you aren't going to add a sump to your system, in which case a regular skimmer might be a better choice.

And, getting back to the rock...I'd recommend getting rid of any unknown rock and fake rock and replace it with live rock or, at least, a base rock that's reliably known to be from an oceanic source.

Quote:

Originally posted by leoslizards
...I'm pretty sure that the algae could be caused by poor circulation and water quality...Someone told me to get two Maxi-Jet Powerheads 1200 (295 gph) and place one on each corner of the tank. I was thinking of getting two Hydor Koralia 1 Pumps (400 gph) instead...

Yeah...you'd be much better off with the Koralias...they create a more desireable kind of water flow in a marine tank than the plain MaxiJets do. Two would be a good idea...one on each side of the tank.

Quote:

Originally posted by leoslizards
I read somewhere that air stones are bad because they raise the ph levels, is this true? Should this be something I shouldn't take lightly?

The airstones will tend to drive the CO2 out of the water, raising the pH levels. But the fish do need well oxygenated water and so you might not have much choice but to run it. With a skimmer, you wouldn't need to because of it secondary oxygenating effect.

Quote:

Originally posted by leoslizards
...I also forgot to mention that I also have some brown algae on the glass and some type of hair algae on the rocks. ...I was thinking maybe some snails but I don't know what kind or how many

The algae on the glass is normal...just use an algae pad on it or scrape it off carefully so as not to scratch the glass...you have to live with that chore in this hobby. As for snails, I find the turbo snails to be the best for algae...and of them, without doubt, the orange turbo snails are best, but a little harder to find.

papagimp · #8 12/28/2007, 09:55 AM

Personal Opinion: avoid the blue legged hermits...most hermits actually. Their opportunistic feeders, so they won't really "help" all that much, they'll feed on both bad crap in the tank as well as some beneficial, IMO, theirs better options to add to the CUC.

turbo's are nice, but you will NEED a better variety to get the job done. for a 29g, a single turbo at most is all I'd stick in there. Get several astrea's, trochus, nerites, stuff like that as well.

As for flow, go more than 10x, that would be okay for a fish only, but most reef tanks will need Alot more than that. 20x is the minimum I'd recommend, and that's for a lower flow softie tank.

Air stones, leave em for the freshwater tanks. Too much flow in a reef tank and you'll wind up with bubbles going everywhere in the tank. And if they don't, you don't have enough flow or have dead spots. A skimmer as well as the fall from the display to the sump should oxygenate the water more than sufficiently.

Of the water parameters listed above, personally i go higher with SG in a reef tank. 1.026, for fish only 1.023 is perfectly fine. Nitrates, aim for less than 20. Under that is perfect for fish only, and many species of corals, but many more will not appreciate the added nutrients and color/growth may be effected. REst were spot on perfect IMO.

Amqeul won't keep ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates down. it'll only "detoxify" the ammonia and nitrite, I've seen no evidence IME to indicate it'll do anything for nitrates though. (same with PRIME, which for no particular reason i prefer over amquel)

leoslizards · #9 12/30/2007, 04:46 PM

Hi guys, thanks for all the info. Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Been through alot since I last started the thread. I have another 29g FW planted tank that I'm dealing with atm also which currently has a bad black beard and hair algae problem and my female albino corn snake passed away yesterday. She was having seizures.

She was beautiful and a great friend and she will be greatly missed. RIP...

Hmm.... Well I was able to test my own water with my new kit and these are my parameters as of today.

Ph= 8.3
NH3= 0
NO2= 0
NO3= 20
ALK= 200

That explains my algae problems. My Nitrates are borderline. I don't know my Phosphate levels because I don't have a kit for and I don't know my Sg level either because of the same reason. I will be getting a Refractometer in the next week or two. I was looking at these on ebay. Which of these do you recommend I get?

(They are in order of preference)
Refractometer 1
Refractometer 2
Which of these two is better? Any suggestions on a better refractometer around the same price? (Link Please)

As for the Phosphate kit I was thinking about getting a Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Reef Master Liquid Test Kit. I used the Saltwater Master Liquid Test Kit for the water parameter results above and Hagen Carbonate/Total Hardness Test Kit for the ALK result. I also noticed that my ALK is way too high at 200 when it should be from 105 to 125ppm. Will this cause any problems? Shouldn't the higher the number the better since there is a less chance of something messing with my ph levels? If this is a major problem, how do I fix it, with partial water changes? I think this could be do to the Seachem Marine Buffer I added to the aquarium a month ago before I added my first fish because my ph was too low and I didn't have the time to raise it slowly with the Instant Ocean which would have raised my SG levels as well.

I forgot to mention last time that I used a Tap Water Filter to filter my water but I didn't use the included pH Adjuster & Electro-Right Treatment. Instead I just used Instant Ocean synthetic sea salt to raise the ph and to add the missing trace elements and minerals.

My plan is to have reef system with about 6 to 9 (under 4") fish. I know that would be overstocking but I heard it is possible to overstock just a little if I had better filtration via a sump/refug, LR, a protein skimmer and other equipment. I measured my tank and it is a 29gallon tall. For now I want to add a 10 gallon diy sump/refug and then move up to a bigger one (20 or 30 gallon) after I build a better stand that could house a bigger sump.

As for equipment, I was looking at protein skimmers online and they are a bit over my budget with the cheapest one being around $50 and the mediocre ones starting at $100. I know I shouldn't go for the cheap stuff because I've read that I'll end up spending even more in the future so I decided to go the DIY route for now. I haven't actually looked at any DIY PS tutorials yet but I know they exist. Anyone have the link to the best DIY PS tuts? What's the average cost of a DIY PS? How hard is it to build one? I don't think it'll be a problem since I'm pretty handy and do these type of things all the time.

I don't plan to upgrade this tank but if I do, the max size would be a 55 or 65 gallon tank so all the equipment I'll be getting will have to work with at least a 65g tank unless it's a DIY equipment. For example, I've heard that the bigger the PS the better so I don't mind making one that works for lets say a 100g tank. That goes for store bought equipment as well if it's really worth the extra costs.

As I mentioned earlier, the sump for now will consist of a DIY 10g sump/refug with a HOB overflow and a spraybar (or two) return. As for the actual layout of the sump's baffles, refug, and PS location, I is undecided for now. I've read alot of tuts about 1 - 2 months ago and it's a bit confusing but I believe that the best layout would be with the refug and dump on the sides with the return camber in between them. I still need to do a bit more reading before I decide on my final design. Any help, links or tips on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I will be using a used 10g All-Glass aquarium that used to house fish. What's the best way of cleaning it? Just salt, water, and alot of elbow grease?
I am also going to make a DIY overflow with 1/2" to 1" pvc lines and the return lines inside the aquarium made out of clear acrylic tubes. Similar to glass Lilly Pipes. I would like to remove as much of the equipment out of the tank as possible. I will post pictures of my diagrams and pics of my current stand later on so that you guys can help me out.

As for the LR. I'm getting some within the next month. I'm still a little confused about classification grades, as well as terms like cured, uncured, etc... I understand that if I add uncured LR to my main tank that it could cause another cycle and possibly kill all my inhabitants or even crash my system and if the LR is cured then it is safe to add it right away to my main display, correct? I don't truly understand why LR must be cured first in the first place. Yeah I know I have alot of reading to do.

Either way, I will be getting some soon for free from my uncles' friend but I don't know what type or how much or if it's cured or not.
Any recommendations on a certain type or grade of LR that I should get? Fiji premium, Super premium, Super Duper premium, Ultimate premium, Extremely Premium, etc... (LOL I'm just making up words now , I told you I didn't know the proper terms). I found this really nice rock at Liveaquaria.com Drs. Foster & Smith Select Lalo Live Rock. I wonder if they have some of these but I doubt it. I would actually buy some of these instead of getting some common type like Fiji for free if I could find some here in FL. Anyone know where to get some ? What type is common in South FL? I could always call the distributor and find out what they have in stock and then call her and let her know what I want. I should aim for 35 lbs of cured LR, right? What about for the refug, 5lbs more or some rubble LR? No base rock just pure live rock? It's free but beggars can't be choosers, I'll take what I can get.
About 3 weeks ago she was giving me a bunch of free corals but I said no thanks because I thought I needed an older tank in order for them to survive but I've seen that some people here in this forum put corals in their tanks right after it finished cycling. Could I start putting in corals already? I mean I know I have to get the LR settled in first but could I actually start adding some this early in the game?

Anyways, this post is starting to get long so let me hurry up and ask the rest of my questions. Ok so I covered filtration, that just leaves lighting. I plan on making some DIY lights as well. Any recommendations? I was first thinking Power Compacts which I could build for about $50 - $90 but I seem to have noticed alot of talk about T5 lights in this forum. I think it's the most popular choice in the aquarium hobby next to Metal Halides. Now I'm thinking DIY Metal Halide HQI but I think the heat might be a bit too much. It's hot hear in South FL but the tank is located downstairs where it's cooler and I could point the air conditioner vent strait to it if needed. Plus I would add extra cooling via DIY 120mm computer case fans. I also have about four MH/ Halogen lamp fixtures laying in the storage closet that could be converted into pendant lights. All I would need is a ballast and the bulb which I can get for about $60 for 70w and about $70 to $100 for 150 to 250 watts. I also have a bunch of different lamp fixtures and ballasts laying around that might work for something. Most are T12 fixtures. I was wondering how the ends of a T5 bulb looks like? Does it have a single ball shaped prong on the end? I have a couple huge fixtures for whatever those type of bulbs are. I know that the bulbs with two small prong sticks is a T12. I'll gather everything I have and take pics when I get the chance. How much light (wattage) would I need for my 29g tall tank? Would one 150w or 250w MH HQi be sufficient? What about for the sump? How many bulbs? What about color temps 12,000(Kelvin)? If I get the LR before I get the lights, could I maintain the LR using my current 20w Standard fluorescent bulb or at least keep it from dying?

Moving on......

I went to my LFS but all they had where turbo snails so I bought only 5 of them. Then I was looking through LiveAquaria and they look totally different. They actually look like this Astraea Conehead Snail. Some even have tiny pink dots. Maybe they mislabeled them. I'll take pics later as well. They also recommended I get a couple horseshoe crabs or some Sand Stars. Should I get any of these? The sand star look pretty cool. I would actually like a Blue Starfish but I think these are not beneficial to tank maintenance rather then just purely aesthetic. I think they're beautiful and would really like that own one.

Ok, I think that's all for now. For the high nitrate issue I'm just going to remove 5g of water and top off the rest with slightly salty water which is about another 5g. I don't have a refractometer so I'm just going to use the instructions on the Instant Ocean Salt. If you have any tips please let me know.

Thanks for all your help! Very appreciated,

Leo

rjrobert · #10 12/30/2007, 07:55 PM

Some good advice was listed above. I will only add this.
WAGE WAR!!! You can win the battle. I don't buy the you have to sit in an algae/cyno warzone for months while your tank cycles.

Get the water changes rolling (make sure the ro/di water you are using tests between 0 to 5 TDS - you have to test before you add the salt)
Get a GFO/Phosban reactor and start running 24x7. I would change the media every 2 weeks for a few weeks.
Get a second Phosban reactor but run Carbon in it.
(The reactors are $20 a piece)

I like to have about 1 snail per gallon of water. Get a Queen Conch and a few other sand bed cleaners.

You can win this war. My first tank 5 years ago had horrible algae off and on for 2 years. When I put together this tank I told myself I was not going to allow that to happen again and planned for it day one. At the first sign of the Cyno I went nuts and waged war as I stated above. Sand and everything else was clear within a week and I haven't seen anything in the last 4 months (except for the normal cleaning of the glass).

I also grow Cheato in a refugium.

Good Luck, Get the flak vest on and get proactive with the algae instead of reactive - you can win!!!

Make sure your skimming too. You don't have to have a $2000 skimmer to get the job done. My 300 gallon setup uses an ASM3 which is pretty inexpensive considering the tank size and bioload.

leoslizards · #11 12/31/2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rjrobert
Get a GFO/Phosban reactor and start running 24x7. I would change the media every 2 weeks for a few weeks.
Get a second Phosban reactor but run Carbon in it.
(The reactors are $20 a piece)

........
I also grow Cheato in a refugium.

I was looking at the Phosban reactors online and correct me if I'm wrong, it's basically an external canister type filter similar to the Lifegard Aquarium Filter Systems. You can also use them as a fluidized bed filter as well right? Where do you get them for $20? The cheapest I've seen is $40/ea. shipped. Changing the media every two weeks sounds a bit expensive, that's about $30 - $40 more a month on just media. What does GFO mean?
I was thinking maybe I could make my own Phosban type reactor? I got an extra one of these Tap Water Filters that I could simply remove the DI resin, fill it with media and attach a water pump to the bottom, or it is just as easy to make one out of pvc. What do you think?

What's Cheato?

rjrobert · #12 12/31/2007, 09:30 AM

I was specifically refering to the
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...20reactor&Np=1

On that site there $31. I got mine at the LFS for a little over $20. You can just put 2 cups in to start. A container should last you the first 6 weeks (3 changes)

Chaeto is a macro algae that obsorbs excess nutrients in the water. As it grows you can simply throw out the old growth as an easy means of nutrient export.

After seeing that filter, I could be 100% wrong since I have no experience with it but it looks pretty underwhelming considering the crud that is in the typical public water supply. I would get or borrow a TDS meter (Their cheap) test the regular unfiltered water (Probably going to have a reading over 130tds) then test the water coming out of the filter (Should be 0 but under 5 is ok)
If your getting anything over 5-10 then your putting junk water in your tank as a starting point. This would definetly cause you problems both short term and long term. I wouldn't do anything else before getting a 4 or 5 stage RO/DI unit. Check out talkingreef.com their are some great podcasts that go into details.

If you do measure the TDS of the water coming out of the line let us know what it is. We would like to see how that little filter does.

leoslizards · #13 12/31/2007, 04:22 PM

I know you where referring to the PhosBan Reactor 150. I was just saying that it's basically a single canister filter. Similar to the Pentair Rainbow Filters. I also could probably build one close to it. A DIY PhosBan Reactor 150 using that Tap Water Filter housing. I own two of them but I only use one so I was thinking of emptying the resin from one and filling it with Phosban media then just pumping water from the bottom up, or you could make one out of 4 or 5" PVC pipe. Like one of those DIY CO2 reactors.

I've used the Tap Water Filter for over 3 years now and it's pretty good. I used it on my 29g planted aquarium and it did wonders. My plants would grow fast, flowered and even pearled. The only problem with the filters is the replacement filter's costs. Each filter lasts about a month and it got expensive so I stopped using it. Soon after, my planted tank was never the same. 80% of my plants and fish died and now I have a huge problem with algae. I just started using it again because I got a 3pk of replacement cartridges and the extra filter on ebay for only $25, so now I only use it on my SW tank.

I plan on getting a better 5 or 6 stage RO/DI system when I get some extra cash. They are expensive at first but in the long run you end up saving alot of money, unlike the Tap Water Filter. I heard that the better RO/DI unit's filters last almost a year before needing replacement. $40 (Tap Water Filter) + $220 (a year of filters) = $260! Better RO unit $100 - $300.