What rare angel is the least owned?

[zemuron114]

it would be a fantastic feat to CB peppermints. Only 1 has survived since Boyle started collecting them so to get a breeding wild caught pair to live and spawn alone is amazing... I highly doubt he will jump right into those guys... when he does, they will all go to Asia haha

maybe the 3rd or 4th generation of them would be able to live in higher temps, but the first gen i wouldn't try.

[Sheol]

Yeah, there seem to be little hints here & there. Does CB boyeli (Sp?) mean taking out a second mortgage?

Matthew

[copps]

Let's settle down guys... I'm talking wild specimens becoming available... Let's leave it at that for now Nothing on the captive bred side yet for a long time...

DJ, I've confirmed one peppermint alive... heard accounts of a few others... but that one's confirmed... once they settle in they can't be that hard... I'd bet a good bit died as as a result of temperature... the one surviving is in 72 degree water and was collected tiny, so it probably adapted better. I've had a P. multifasciata for years now and they're not far off...

As for temperature of captive bred specimens... Frank's gotten the offspring to fare better at just a couple of degrees above normal... so even if are ever captive bred P. boylei will be a cool water fish... I'd imagine 74 would be fine as it's been with the wild abei, debelius and hotus... and a tropical reef could easily be kept at that temperature... with the only worry being the electric bill from the chiller but not if you could afford a pepp! I've kept just about all corals including sps and anemones at 74 with no issues... I just want to see one of these guys though! I should be going to Japan next year on the way to Guam, and hopefully I could stop there long enough to do some sightseeing !

[CarlC]

I'm hoping to stop in Japan long enough to sightsee next year also but on the way to the Philippines and Bali. I'll be happy just to be able to see some of the odd angel morphs in the shops. Seeing boylei would be the icing on the cake.

Carl

[Sheol]

If I ever have the cash, I'll certainly have a Chiller installed. A deepwater/rare fish reef would be a great project!

Matthew

[SDguy]

Hmmm, for captive breeding, I'd much rather see something like this....

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by copps
As for temperature of captive bred specimens... Frank's gotten the offspring to fare better at just a couple of degrees above normal... so even if are ever captive bred P. boylei will be a cool water fish... I'd imagine 74 would be fine as it's been with the wild abei, debelius and hotus... and a tropical reef could easily be kept at that temperature... with the only worry being the electric bill from the chiller but not if you could afford a pepp! I've kept just about all corals including sps and anemones at 74 with no issues... I just want to see one of these guys though! I should be going to Japan next year on the way to Guam, and hopefully I could stop there long enough to do some sightseeing !

Yeah, just because thy are captive berd doesnt mean the entire natural history is discounted. These fish have adapted over millions of years to metabolize at the lower temps. One captive breeding will not erase that.

[Sheol]

I'd rather see more C. abei collected & some CB efforts begun.

Matthew

[triggerfish1976]

It was my understanding that Frank's CB Interruptus could be kept at normal reef tank temps. I think I have even seen them successfully kept in aquaria in the 78-80 degree range whereas the wild specimans tend to fair poorly when kept at these temps.

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
It was my understanding that Frank's CB Interruptus could be kept at normal reef tank temps. I think I have even seen them successfully kept in aquaria in the 78-80 degree range whereas the wild specimans tend to fair poorly when kept at these temps.

I would be VERY interested to see some data of this. Why would wild interruptus not occupy warmer waters in nature, if they were physiologically able to do so?

[triggerfish1976]

Species of fish have been known to live in both deep and shallow water habitats like Bandit Angels in HI.
There are also fish that are collected as juveniles in shallow tropical reef waters like Amphiprion Latezontus and they adapt to more tropical temp. tanks. The adults are generally found in temperate waters.

[Mark]

Anyone ever keep a Genicanthus Takeuchii? It's definitely a looker, but I haven't seen any available.

[triggerfish1976]

I have see juveniles of that fish for sale in Japan but I have yet to hear of an adult male like one pictured for sale.

[copps]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
It was my understanding that Frank's CB Interruptus could be kept at normal reef tank temps. I think I have even seen them successfully kept in aquaria in the 78-80 degree range whereas the wild specimans tend to fair poorly when kept at these temps.

The interruptus could... he's meticulous with these things and 78-80 is fine... although 78 is better long term with short term spikes to 80 okay... I was referring to others kept at 74 with good results, including abei, hotumatua, debelius and the like...

By the way, I heard a very reliable account of perhaps the first interruptus angel documented in the main Hawaiian Islands... a dive operation in Kona has seen an individual multiple times... I'm going to get in touch with them to find out more about it... apparently they have a photo in their shop... pretty neat!

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
I would be VERY interested to see some data of this. Why would wild interruptus not occupy warmer waters in nature, if they were physiologically able to do so?

That's a good question Jeremy, but keep in mind that there are many other variables other than temperature that keep fish in a niche... I've spoken to many people about this, and some believe it's competition that keeps some of these deep water angels deep, and not temperature... Fact is though that Frank has been able to keep his offspring at slightly higher temperatures than wild... again he's meticulous with this stuff... and this has been documented in many other fishes that have been bred in captivity.

Originally posted by Mark
Anyone ever keep a Genicanthus Takeuchii? It's definitely a looker, but I haven't seen any available.

Has takeuchii been offered in the trade before? Trigger you've seen it? I spoke to Jack Randall about this fish (that's his wicked photo above), and I saw the type specimen which was HUGE! It looked like a striped bass in the jar... amazing! Hopefully on that trip to Japan I'll have time to hit the Ogasawara Islands, which are just a cruise away from mainland Japan... these islands are a World Heritage site... like Lord Howe... so no collection...

[Sheol]

That is a cool looking Genicanthus. Bet there are no captive records on it, either..

Matthew

[copps]

The juveniles are very striking also... there is one pictured on the new angelfish book cover...

[zemuron114]

you wont find a bandit on Oahu in less then 100 feet. If you do it is a fluke.

the reason they are found in shallow waters in Niihau and Kauai is because the temps are cooler there.

same with Personatus and the like.

I think the waikiki aquarium keeps there deepwater reef in the low 70's...

[Vili_Shark]

John,
You mentioned debelius need lower temps?

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by copps



That's a good question Jeremy, but keep in mind that there are many other variables other than temperature that keep fish in a niche... I've spoken to many people about this, and some believe it's competition that keeps some of these deep water angels deep, and not temperature... Fact is though that Frank has been able to keep his offspring at slightly higher temperatures than wild... again he's meticulous with this stuff... and this has been documented in many other fishes that have been bred in captivity.

If they usually occupy a deeper niche due to diet, competition, etc., then this TOTALLY DISCOUNTS the claim that wild interruptus cannot be kept at warmer tank temperatures? This is interesting. I have never kept an interruptus, but I have heard they need to be cool, otherwise they dont thrive, by many people who I respect their opinion. I guess this is totally untrue.

Species of fish have been known to live in both deep and shallow water habitats like Bandit Angels in HI.

While I do not discount this whatsoever, this has nothing to do with what I was referring to. My point is simply this- we cannot make the claim that a species of fish requires conditions A because it is wild caught, and could require conditions B is it is a F1 captive- Especially when conditions B would be detrimental to survival of a wild caught animal. Biology does not work this way. It appears that this was the claim that was being m,ade about the interruptus- wild ones will die at 78 degrees, while captive ones will thrive. I dont think this is accurate. If I have misquoted, or misunderstood, I apologize.

There is no doubt that captive bred animals will fare ebtter in the aquarium than wild caught animals as a generalization. They ahve a much better advantage in ability to accept aquarium fare, conditions, and techniques. However, I DO NOT agree that captive breeding these fish makes them more resilient to significant condition changes. For example, wild fish that are not considered reef safe- I do not belive the captive bred ones will be miraculously reef safe. Perhaps less likely to pick at inverts, but one (or two, or 5) generations of captive breeding will NOT eliminate the instict to forage for a instictual food source. Case in point, Copps' mention of his lemon peel. There is a slew of other biological concepts which also apply to this model, but I wont bore anyone anymore with my claptrap, or hijack this anymore.

[Mark]

When it comes to cold blooded animals, there's a lot more to temp that we need to consider. For one thing, it regulates their metabolism. Lower temperature water also holds more oxygen. It may be more simple for deepwater angels though. They may just have a better tolerance for lower temps, and so they use that advantage to inhabit a habitat(deeper) with less competition. This is the case with certain haplochromis in Lake Victoria. Ever since the introduction of the Nile Perch, many haplochromis can only be found only in really deep water. The reason is that lakes tend to have lover oxygen levels in deeper water. The haplochromis can thrive just above the anoxic layer, while the nile perch cannot. So their deepwater existence is merely predation avoidance. Prior to the Nile Perch introduction, the same haplochromis species existed in shallow water as well.


I will add something though. I have better success with my reef fish at lower temps. I keep my reef at 75. A while back, a particular reef 'expert' recommended keeping reef tanks in the 80's. I strongly disagreed with this. My fish behave much more comfortably with mid-70 temps. I believe they will also live longer.

In reality, the reason why some angels prefer deepwater could be a multitude of factors. But if you invest in such an expensive fish, I would think that it's in your best interest to mimic their natural environment as best as possible. This may also include less intense lighting.

[coralite]

Well since we're all gonna geek out on the ecology of fish I thought I would throw in my take on it.

Enzymes are one of the most crucial component to regulating metabolic functions. All animals have enzymes which are designed to operate at a specific temperature. Warm blooded animals maintain temp so their enzymes operate within a narrow range of temps. Conversely, cold blooded animals can produce enzymes which not only operate at a wider range of temps (isozymes) but they usually produce a suite of isozymes which have overlapping temperature ranges.

The ability to produce the suite of isozymes is more pronounced in juveniles so that they can acclimate to the environment where they find themselves. As that juvenile matures, it's environment will regulate which type of isozyme will be produced for proper metabolic regulation. The ability to produce other isozymes will be reduced with age. Barring any type of selective breeding, this enzyme selection is what allows for juvenile cold blooded creatures to acclimate to temperatures which are not ideal. That being said, 'outlier' enzymes which operate at lower or higher than ideal temp have some kind of cost trade-off associated with their production. An animal living in temps on the edges of the bell curve will have to devote more energy to producing the expensive enzyme and as a result, it might not grow as large, it may not live as long, it may not be as fecund etc. In the end all organisms follow their biological path of least resistance.

[triggerfish1976]

Based on personal observation and experience there seem to be numerous fish currently avail. in this hobby that are being collected from deeper water that are adapting to reef tank temperatures. Interruptus was just one example of a species that generally doesn't and I can attest to wild caught specimans adpating poorly to the typical reef tank. I obtained a large pair a few years ago and they did poorly for the first week but once I lowered the temperature they thrived. CB specimans on the other hand are easily being kept in shallow reef setups in the 78-80 degree range.
I have also kept many of the deeper water Genicanthus Angels and they also react poorly when introduced into a higher temp. reef tank but generally adapt if you lower the temp. upon introduction and then slowly raise it back up over the course of a few months.

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Based on personal observation and experience there seem to be numerous fish currently avail. in this hobby that are being collected from deeper water that are adapting to reef tank temperatures. Interruptus was just one example of a species that generally doesn't and I can attest to wild caught specimans adpating poorly to the typical reef tank. I obtained a large pair a few years ago and they did poorly for the first week but once I lowered the temperature they thrived. CB specimans on the other hand are easily being kept in shallow reef setups in the 78-80 degree range.
I have also kept many of the deeper water Genicanthus Angels and they also react poorly when introduced into a higher temp. reef tank but generally adapt if you lower the temp. upon introduction and then slowly raise it back up over the course of a few months.

I think we will just ahve to respectfully agree to disagree. I cannot fathom how such fish can biologically adjuxt to conditions which they have evolved out of without negative impacts. Whiel I certainly do not doubt any of your claims, I must insist there is a degree of tradeoff where the individual loses some advantage. As coralite mentioned, perhaps in fecundity, lifespan, immunities, etc.

We need to understand that there is ridiculous little known about many of these fishes biological capacities. For example, I can read constantly how copper based meds will destroy a tangs gut flora and fauna and kill them. But I have yet to see ANY bioassay of a marine ornamental's gut. We really have no idea what makes many of these organisms tick and why. Do deepwater species *need* cold water, high pressure, darker conditions, specific food items, or none of the above, to thrive?
Yet, we all have the ability to follow the ultimate trial-and-error experimentor- Mother Nature that is. These animals have selcted to live at the conditions they are in, and we are foolish to attempt to change that in a mere few generations.

[triggerfish1976]

jmaneyapanda,

I understand what you're saying but at the same time pretty much every animal that we keep in our aquariums is having to apapt to a captive environment since we cannot even come close to duplicating their natural environement regardless of what most of us think. The unfortunate aspect of being in this hobby is we are "forcing" fish, corals, and inverts to have to adjust to living in a much more controllered habitat that meet our needs moreso than theirs in order to be able to keep them for our amusement and curiosity. Most fish collected for our trade never even come close to living as long as they do in the wild due to improper husbandry and the ones that are taken care of properly still only live for a fraction of their wild counterparts lives.

[jmaneyapanda]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
jmaneyapanda,

I understand what you're saying but at the same time pretty much every animal that we keep in our aquariums is having to apapt to a captive environment since we cannot even come close to duplicating their natural environement regardless of what most of us think. The unfortunate aspect of being in this hobby is we are "forcing" fish, corals, and inverts to have to adjust to living in a much more controllered habitat that meet our needs moreso than theirs in order to be able to keep them for our amusement and curiosity. Most fish collected for our trade never even come close to living as long as they do in the wild due to improper husbandry and the ones that are taken care of properly still only live for a fraction of their wild counterparts lives.

Yes, but we are talking about 2 entirely different things. Adaptation does occur ferquently and readily. Adaptation is the wild fish coming and living for years in our aquarium, eating the food we provide, maybe even breeding in our tanks. But, if we are saying that, as a blanket statement, wild caught individuals cannot adapt to condition X, while captive bred ones can, then this is totally different. You are assigning some cumulative advantage to the second group, based on the fact that they are captive bred. Whether it be they can tolerate higher temps, or eat different diets, or whatever. This type of significant adaptation of the biological process cannot happen in the short term. This is my only point. As it relates to this discussion, we cannot state that wild caught interruptus (or hotumatuas, debelius, etc) cannot tolerate our temps of 80 degress, but captive berds miraculously have adapted the ability to do so.