High nitrate cause brown-out ?

kysard1 · #1 09/29/2007, 03:32 PM

Shortly after I purchased my first SPS frags they turned brown.

Found that my RO waste line was dead-headed. The DI resin was depleted quickly and I was topping off with 50ppm nitrates for a week or two.

My SPS frags turned different shades of brownish and my reef tank reached 20 ppm Nitrate.

I fixed the RO waste line and now two weeks later I am down to 0.5 ppm Nitrate.

Would the 20ppm nitrate cause the browning? Will these frags regain color ?

Anything else that may have caused the color degredation?

Specs:

50G Oceanic
50 lbs Uaniva LR
2-3" Argamax
250W 10k UShio SE
Polished Al lined canopy - no reflector
6"x6" overflow
Vortec
Closed loop - SCWD + QO 3000
20H sump
Tunze 9010
GFO + Carbon Reactor
QO 1200 return
Filter Guys Filmtec 75GPD RODI

snarfe · #2 09/29/2007, 04:22 PM

You should check your phosphates, more likely to brown your sps out than high nitrates

kysard1 · #3 09/29/2007, 04:35 PM

The phosphate never really spiked, I guess because of the GFO reactor. Could also be that they are organically bound and not measuring.

snarfe · #4 09/29/2007, 04:58 PM

do you know your calcium, alk, mag? salinty? do you use a two part? if your don't use a two part your may want to look into it, i would say that if this is your case that your tank is just unstable. how long has your tank been up?

kysard1 · #5 09/29/2007, 05:05 PM

tank has been up 3.5 months.

Alk 8 dkh
pH 8.1
Ca 450 ppm

Very stable alk and ca

snarfe · #6 09/29/2007, 05:13 PM

its hard to say man but your phosphates is generally what is going to brown out most of your sps, but there is a possibilty that brown could be the normal color, brown doesn't mean that its not healthy either.

mysterybox · #7 09/29/2007, 05:26 PM

When my Nitrates get above .5, my acros start losing color and exhibet no growth. If my Nitrates are above .5 and my phosphates are above .024, then they have tissue loss at the tips.

cwegescheide · #8 09/29/2007, 05:30 PM

Yes... I had a recent major Nitrate spike.. My colors took a major hit. I've gotten the trates under control and the color is gradually returning but slowly. Good luck

Chris

stony_corals · #9 09/30/2007, 12:18 PM

nitrates will cause SPs to brown out. What is happening is that the corals zoox will absorb NO3 from the water column and due to higher than NSW levels the zoox will quickly reproduce causing the coral to appear brown. You'll may see a drop in growth rates too.

jmaneyapanda · #10 09/30/2007, 03:25 PM

Does anyone have any actual evidence that high nitrates (or any nutrients for that matter) cause browning? I just heard a very interesting talk from Dana Riddle, and he quite emphatically claimed that nutirents play a SLIGHT role in coloration, whereas other much more influential aspects, such as protein light requirements, alkalinity, etc.

millepora · #11 09/30/2007, 03:40 PM

Anytime your system has a high abundance of nutrients, this can causing browning of your SPS. Zoxanthallae love high nutrients, just like algae, and when they overpopulate it causes your acro to brown.

jmaneyapanda · #12 09/30/2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by millepora
Anytime your system has a high abundance of nutrients, this can causing browning of your SPS. Zoxanthallae love high nutrients, just like algae, and when they overpopulate it causes your acro to brown.

Yes, I understand the principle, but what about actual evidence? Riddle showed two frags of identical SPS corals- one in high light, low nutrient, and one in medium light, high nutrient. In all reality, the high nutrient, med light looked better. He had pretty specific evidence showing that high nutreint can just as easily play no part in coral coloration.

fijiblue · #13 09/30/2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

nitrates will cause SPs to brown out. What is happening is that the corals zoox will absorb NO3 from the water column and due to higher than NSW levels the zoox will quickly reproduce causing the coral to appear brown.

Nitrate WILL NOT reproduce zooanthellae! If that was the case every single coral and photosynthetic animal would turn brown in an aquarium. Elevated phosphates WILL trigger a rapid reproduction of zooanthellae and cause brown out. A little nitrate will actually increase growth; like a fertalizer if you will.

kysard1 · #14 09/30/2007, 08:22 PM

I imagine if my well water has 60ppm NO3 that it has elevated PO4. I didn't detect an elavated PO4 level with my API test kit, but I don't think it is a very sensitive.

I recharged my PO4 reactor today with GFO (4 tlbs.) I was at 3 TLBS.

fijiblue · #15 09/30/2007, 08:27 PM

kysard1 - I would get your water evaluated. You could have extremely high trace, fertalizer, sulfur, etc in your well water that is causing the brown out.

kysard1 · #16 09/30/2007, 08:44 PM

Now that I unplugged the RO waste line I am getting 15ppm TDS post RO and 0 ppm post DI.

The odd thing is I don't have any algae, I can go 7 days before I need to clean the diatoms off the front glass.

I am very happy that my system can reduce NO3 from 20ppm to 0.5 ppm in 2 weeks.

I am hoping the coral colors will come back in time.

kev apsley · #17 10/01/2007, 07:35 AM

what about a DSB? do you have one?

Horace · #18 10/01/2007, 08:09 AM

Ive also seen that tanks with no No3 often look worse than tanks with up to 50 ppm nitrate. Honestly, when my colors started to lighten, I was tempted (and still am) to put Potassium Nitrate (KN03) in my tank just to raise the nitrate to about 5ppm

For those of you who said your seeing burnt tips and color loss very quickly if nirate goes up... Im sorry, but I have to respectfully tell you I think you are incorrect. There is something else causeing your problems.

jmaneyapanda · #19 10/01/2007, 08:31 AM

double post

jmaneyapanda · #20 10/01/2007, 08:31 AM

I dont think anyone is quite answering my question. Why has it been determined that zooxanthellae can easily "overpower" the other color producing proteins, such as fluorescing prtoeins, etc.? Couldnt it just as easily be that when corals are all browned out, and the nutrient is high, that something else be amiss that caused the coloration proteins to fade? Such as Photoinhibiton from too much light, or subsaturation from not enough, etc.? I am just looking for some answers.

kysard1 · #21 10/01/2007, 08:57 AM

I have a 10K Unshio 250W, albeit no reflector but this should be plenty light for a 30x18x21" tank. All the SPS are in the top 1/3 and in the center.

I am leaning toward a phosphate spike. My test kit is an API which I have learned is inaccurate. Also at the time the RO malfunctioned I was only running 3 TBLS of GFO.

Horace · #22 10/01/2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
I dont think anyone is quite answering my question. Why has it been determined that zooxanthellae can easily "overpower" the other color producing proteins, such as fluorescing prtoeins, etc.? Couldnt it just as easily be that when corals are all browned out, and the nutrient is high, that something else be amiss that caused the coloration proteins to fade? Such as Photoinhibiton from too much light, or subsaturation from not enough, etc.? I am just looking for some answers.

Im not sure its a matter of "overpowering". Its just the fact that when the Zoox density gets too high, they actually cover up the color underneith. That being said, I think that many people falsely group the effect of Po4 with the effect of No3. I think most of the problems with zoox density is related to Po4 and No3 have little to no effect.

As for the lack of coloration proteins, that could very well be a result of either low nutrition, or possibly bleached too to high light. Obviously there is a very big difference between a coral that has lost color and one that is bleached. IMO bleached corals often are caused by lack of proper amounts of "food", or too much light, or both.

stony_corals · #23 10/01/2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fijiblue
Nitrate WILL NOT reproduce zooanthellae! If that was the case every single coral and photosynthetic animal would turn brown in an aquarium. Elevated phosphates WILL trigger a rapid reproduction of zooanthellae and cause brown out. A little nitrate will actually increase growth; like a fertalizer if you will.

I've done this multiple times in a controlled environment. So yes, elevated (~20ppm) NO3 WILL cause sps to brown out. But you are correct, as Kurt mentioned that 0ppm NO3 (real 0ppm) is not good either, corals need N to grow tissue.... Phosphates may cause brown outs when elevated NO3 (20ppm+) is also there, but at that point, you have worse problems. Your sps will no longer be able calcify...

There is a point, which isn't scientifically identified/proven, whereby excess photosynthesis will reduce the level of calcification in the coral.... I'll try to find that research report.

jmaneyapanda · #24 10/01/2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Horace
Im not sure its a matter of "overpowering". Its just the fact that when the Zoox density gets too high, they actually cover up the color underneith. That being said, I think that many people falsely group the effect of Po4 with the effect of No3. I think most of the problems with zoox density is related to Po4 and No3 have little to no effect.

As for the lack of coloration proteins, that could very well be a result of either low nutrition, or possibly bleached too to high light. Obviously there is a very big difference between a coral that has lost color and one that is bleached. IMO bleached corals often are caused by lack of proper amounts of "food", or too much light, or both.

Kurt, that is exactly my point. Where does it say (or have been shown) that the zooxanthallae will get to the density to "cover up the color". To me, this is a speculative assumption that people make, when the colors get brown. As per the seminar with Dana Riddle I mentioned earlier, he was able to get great color, despite the nutrient load. To me, this rather indicates that coloration is just as, if not more, dependent on other factors.

Now, this being said, my statenment is not at equilibrium. By this I mean that I can see that limiting nutrients, such as phosphate, can cause some wonderful coloration. But this doesnt mean that excess nutrient causes the opposite. That equation goes one way, not both, at least in my mind. I am hoping someone can show me otherwise (with more than the speculative logic).

stony_corals · #25 10/01/2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
I dont think anyone is quite answering my question. Why has it been determined that zooxanthellae can easily "overpower" the other color producing proteins, such as fluorescing prtoeins, etc.? Couldnt it just as easily be that when corals are all browned out, and the nutrient is high, that something else be amiss that caused the coloration proteins to fade? Such as Photoinhibiton from too much light, or subsaturation from not enough, etc.? I am just looking for some answers.

Well, at NSW nutrient levels, the zoox get their nutrients (CO2, N, etc) primarily from it's host, the coral. This is part of the benefit of the symbiotic relationship. They wouldn't get the required nutrients to live from the NSW alone (also they are "protected" too). However, this doesn't mean that the zoox can not absorb nutrients from the water column, they can. This is what happens with elevated nutrient levels in the water column. The zoox can absorb from the water column, do, and then they reproduce faster causing the browning...

Also, take into account, that there is much we do not know (we meaning scientific community, not me) about corals, zoox and their relationship... There is little we know about the colorful pigments, so it's just safer, IMHO, to keep them in environmental conditions as close to their native environment as possible...