Solaris Lights

[killagoby]

What do you guys think of this new light system? I've seen it in person, and it gives off no heat. Evaporation is a prob in my tank w/ PC lights, so I might have to use these. Solaris Lights

Does anyone know if SPS coral growth is as good as MH with them?

[Jasonincuritiba]

probably not, when I saw them on display even LPS and Softies didnt look to well, if you are looking for low heat try T-5s

[ReefRockerLive]

I second that. Look for T5 fixtures, they have been known to keep SPS alive and thriving. Not much is known yet about the LED Solaris, especially with acros.

[lvpd186]

If you read this thread I think you will find out a lot of info on the solaris lights. If I remember right there are several people that posted good success with both SPS and LPS corals (I think I even remember seeing some side by side comparison photos showing some good growth). They seem like great lights, but a little too expensive for my budget.

[GSMguy]

over 5 or more years they pay for themselves

[hahnmeister]

They dont pay for the corals you lose though.

[ReefWraith]

Killagoby,

I've posted some Lux readings on the previously mentioned thread that may be of interest.

See page 37 ....

click here

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
They dont pay for the corals you lose though.

ive seen some good results am i missing something?

[ReefWraith]

ive seen some good results am i missing something?

Missing something? I don't believe I am either GSMguy... as I'm seeing good results so far as well. The only negative posts I've seen are from people who don't actually own the lights. Interesting!

[hahnmeister]

Ive heard otherwise. These LED lights will become a great option in the coming years when they become more efficient, but right now they can barely compete with the crappiest of crap 250wattDE 20,000K bulbs. I wouldnt say, consider lighting a SPS tank with them.

Oh, and I do have a LED lit tank... its a DIY LED system that I made before the solaris came out. Im not impressed.

[killagoby]

So T5's over Solaris for SPS's? Right now I evoporate 1 gallon of H2O per day with 130w of PC lighting. Will that reduce with T5's?

[hahnmeister]

Yes, T5s boast about an 85-90 lumen/watt efficiency and LEDs like the luxeons in the PFO are in the 50s. Dont get me wrong, there are LED mfg's out there investing heavily in LED technology and 130 lumen/watt and even 150lumen/watt units are going to be mfg'ed in the coming years... but its still going to be a while.

As for improving your evaporation, well... it depends on how much of that evap is caused by your lights. You still have the heater in the tank which is warming the water, and the temperature of the air at the water surface. This combined with however much air movement is going on is going to do alot more for evaporation than your lights.

But as far as eliminating heat, yes, T5s would do that over PCs very well. Efficiency-wise, T5s pull away even more over PCs because of the reflectors. Those lumen/watt ratios I just listed are just for the bulbs, but when you add in the reflectors, the T5s end up putting out about 2-3x as much per watt as PCs. So from that standpoint... 130 watts of PC lighting could be replaced by say... 50 watts of T5 and you would see an increase in output for less heat and wattage.

[ReefWraith]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Ive heard otherwise. These LED lights will become a great option in the coming years when they become more efficient, but right now they can barely compete with the crappiest of crap 250wattDE 20,000K bulbs. I wouldnt say, consider lighting a SPS tank with them.

Oh, and I do have a LED lit tank... its a DIY LED system that I made before the solaris came out. Im not impressed.

Hahnmeister,


As you failed to post any of your 'DIY' LED specifics I can't comment as to the output of your LEDs. However, as I DO have an actual Solaris and have firsthand experience with both Lux measurements and coral behavior/characteristics before and after usage I CAN comment as to it's efficacy. You on the otherhand have to rely on hearsay. See my post as linked above for Lux readings versus a good quality 14K 250W MH bulb. Unless you have first hand experience or have similarly tested the unit and have factual information I don't see how you can add to this post. Too often on this site people spout opinion as if it's fact and then this 'opinion' is spread and somehow becomes 'fact' in the minds of the masses.

Happy Reefing,

ReefWraith

[hahnmeister]

dp

[hahnmeister]

No, none of my 'opinion' is based on heresay actually. I had the opportunity to test out a Polaris while I was in Atlanta last, even open it up and see what makes it tick (Im in EE, so Im not just looking at a bunch of wires and boards). And to add to that, I have a meter... an actual PAR meter, not a lux meter.

The luxeons specs are well known among those here and over at nano-reef.com... where a few of us have made lighting systems based on them prior to the PFO release. I also frequent the LED forums, and keep up on LED technology, so my numbers on efficieny are not opinion, but the actual lumen/watt efficiency ratings published by the mfg's and independent test sources.

Here, check out this DIY system by Zachtos that uses the same luxeon stars that the PFO uses... http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=9
His final results, with 24 of the luxeons @3 watts each, was less output than his previous 26 watts of PC! OUCH!

Even before your test results, I had Dana's to go by...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2

Not impressed by either FWIW. Narrow spectrum, narrow focus/spread, poor output/watt efficiency, in comparison to T5s or MH... its not opinion, its fact.

I have been contacted by 3 people now looking to 'boost' their PFO systems with other lights. My suggestion has been to treat the LED's like halides, and to add rows of T5s to improve the output/spread of the LEDs. One guy who did it (or else he was going to can the PFO LEDs all together) got the best results when he added 4 rows of T5s to his solaris. It saved his light-loving corals that were bleaching out from lack of light, and actually turned the LED's into suppliments for the T5s.

The only opinions that I might base my opinion of LED's on are those impressions of Sanjay Joshi who has been testing out a PFO unit for a while now over one of his smaller tanks. I would consider his opinion of some value though.

As for the %age of PUR vs PAR between halides and LEDs... it depends on the coral. Some corals need more green, some need more yellow/red. So to say that the PUR of the LEDs is better is not 100% correct. Since then, Dana has done more pigment research and blue light is not the only light needed. PFO has had to add green LEDs to their 20,000K units to prevent the overly monochromatic light from making corals lose their colors. I would speculate that much light the bulb-husbandry issues that T5 owners must be aware of, LED owners will have to be aware of as well... and the eventual addition of yellower/red LEDs will happen at some point Im sure. Since you have the pheonix, you should be aware of what an overly monochromatic bulb output can result in... pheonix bulbs look great, but their large blue spike with little of anything else output wise can really wash out the coral pigments in a tank. LED's arent very different. There is such a thing as 'too much blue'. I have a buddy who used to run his 150g with nothing but Radiums, and suppliment them with VHO actinics on top of that! The tank, and its corals were all blue even if they werent supposed to be. When I finally convinced him to try 14,000K Ushios with blue+ T5s instead, the corals came alive despite the lower output (switched from 400s to 250s)... due to the wider spectrum. There is such a thing as too much blue and not much else being bad.

[RiddleLabs]

Aloha all,

As a purchaser and owner of 2 Solaris units, I can personally attest that these LEDs can and will promote SPS growth comparable to (if not exceeding) that seen under metal halide lamps, including 6,500 and 10,000K lamps. And, no, I do not have any stock or financial interest in PFO or any other lighting company. However, I am interested in reporting unbiased results.
Bottom line: Solaris LEDs (in my two cases) have produced excellent stony and soft coral growth. And if my corals are happy, I'm happy.

Dana

[hahnmeister]

But they have less output than 250watt XM 20,000Ks... Even with the % PUR being so much higher for a blue LED system, a 10,000K would simply shred it on all levels. Thats 95+ lumens per watt... luxeons are at what... 60 at most? Oh, wait, there are some that are coming out now that are 80.... Cree should have ones that do 130 on the way... but none of those are in the PFO unit.

As for the spread... the LEDs have what... an 18-24" spread at most on a taller tank? People with 24" deep tanks are having a hard time getting enough light to both the front and back of the tank... people with deeper tanks, say... 30" or more... are left out in the dark all together unless they buy multiple expensive units. The LED's primary advantage is also their disadvantage. To overcome this, we have to use lenses to spread out the LED beam... but then were giving up the advantage all togeter, and back to that crappy lumen/watt ratio of the LED itself.

Trust me, what comes out in the next few years will shred what is out now.

[Pez Vela]

I ordered my 60" Solaris after I saw one in person an could not believe the polyp extension on the corals in the aquarium. The SPS were placed in the top 12-15" of the tank and softies down lower. The owner said he has witnessed way more growth under the Solaris than his previous MH lighting fixture. (I don't know what is was)

I think one thing that no one has brought up when Dana made his comparison. He only had a single prototype 25 LED lamp array to compare to the 20K XM Metal Halide. The article says he recorded 89.4% of the PAR generated by the MH, but it produced that percentage @ only 30% of the MH's wattage. Each LED array is only 75W. That is pretty efficient to me. Like I said, If I had not seen one on person, I would be very hesitant to be one of the 1st people to buy one. But after witnessing it first hand, I bought one. If it does not work out for my SPS, I will switch again. Definitely to T5's over my current MH setup. I am tired of the frequent lamp replacement cost, extra heat gain, higher energy bills, etc.....

Since I will soon own my own personal "test" model LED fixture, I will not have to read any more pro and con debates regarding how good or how bad they are. I will simply plug it in, set the control box's date and time and see how my inhabitants like it. If they thrive, no more questioning posts for me. If they don't, I will buy my 8 lamp-T5 unit as I had originally planned before these units came into the spotlight (no pun intended) and use the Solaris for my fish only tank.

[ReefWraith]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
No, none of my 'opinion' is based on heresay actually. I had the opportunity to test out a Polaris while I was in Atlanta last, even open it up and see what makes it tick (Im in EE, so Im not just looking at a bunch of wires and boards). And to add to that, I have a meter... an actual PAR meter, not a lux meter.


The luxeons specs are well known among those here and over at nano-reef.com... where a few of us have made lighting systems based on them prior to the PFO release. I also frequent the LED forums, and keep up on LED technology, so my numbers on efficieny are not opinion, but the actual lumen/watt efficiency ratings published by the mfg's and independent test sources.

Here, check out this DIY system by Zachtos that uses the same luxeon stars that the PFO uses... http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=9
His final results, with 24 of the luxeons @3 watts each, was less output than his previous 26 watts of PC! OUCH!


Not impressed by either FWIW. Narrow spectrum, narrow focus/spread, poor output/watt efficiency, in comparison to T5s or MH... its not opinion, its fact.

Hahnmeister..

Why not post some numbers then if you have a PAR meter and elude to doing some tests yourself via 'testing out' the Solaris as you mention at the top of your post?

Secondly, I'm not sure you can compare one DIY project with simply the same bulbs to another. There are far too many variables to make such judgements such as reflector and ballast used, line condition, and more (I'm sure you're aware of this).

As for narrow spectrum... according to Riddle's article the spectrum isn't all that narrow. In terms of 'focus/spread', yes... I agree with you. The Solaris output is indeed more focused and allows for far less spread. Most reef tanks have the majority of rock and inhabitants (corals) in the middle of their tanks to allow for better circulation, positioning, and ease of maintenance. If you pile the rockwork against the back wall or have rock and corals across the entire width of the tank then yes... metal halide with it's larger spread would be a better option.

As for 'output/watt efficiency' I have to disagree as LEDs are indeed more efficient in terms of wattage used versus light output from what I've seen. I'm not sure where your facts are coming from here but if you care to clarify I would appreciate it. As with everyone else it seems, I'm here to learn more about these systems and have decided to investigate myself a bit.

PUR values and which color are used by which corals is another hotly debated subject. One that isn't entirely understood yet so I don't intend to debate this point. However, I agree with your point that Blue light is not the 'only' light needed. That being said, the spectrum of the Solaris being heavier on the blue light seems to follow most research showing blue light usage being higher than other forms. Of course too much of anything can be bad. Therefore a balance is best as you indicate. This goes back to spectrum which again seems to be rather well balanced according to Riddle.

Lastly Hahnmeister, I appreciate your input here and believe you are correct that the future will hold even better things for LEDs!

Dana... thanks for your post and input regarding SPS. So far I have been having good results and growth from SPS as well and will be posting 'before' and 'after' pics simply to show growth after another month or two. I encourage all Solaris users to do the same... post the good AND bad regarding these units so we can get a decent picture of what these lights are capable of over a variety of tanks.

Pez Vela... well said and I agree... thus my decision to take the plunge and get some data of my own. Post your results/experience once you receive and use the lights.

Happy Reefing all,


ReefWraith

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Ive heard otherwise. These LED lights will become a great option in the coming years when they become more efficient, but right now they can barely compete with the crappiest of crap 250wattDE 20,000K bulbs. I wouldnt say, consider lighting a SPS tank with them.

Oh, and I do have a LED lit tank... its a DIY LED system that I made before the solaris came out. Im not impressed.

thanks for clearing that up

[hahnmeister]

The efficiency ratings I am coming up with are from the luxeon website. Mfg's tend to be liberal with their output ratings, but the ultra-white and blue luxeons are only boasting an output of 50 lumens per 3 watt unit. Thats a pretty crappy efficiency rating.

Most of the technical data is in the spec sheets by Cree, Phillips, Sylvania, etc. Halides are up at 100-105 lumens per watt. T5s are at about 85-95 lumens/watt. Leds on the market are just nowhere near that yet (50 lumens per watt tops, often less). There are ones in development, but thats all. The one thing about LEDs that makes them seem more efficient is their near laser-like abillity to focus the light they do make into a tight beam. When you view a LED off-angle by more than say, 10 degrees, its output just, well... stops. From the side, a LED looks pretty much dark. This makes them great as automotive headlights, but I dont know if its that great inside my reef tank. Some of the better DIY LED applications I have seen are with the use of lenses on the LEDs to help spread out the light, but then the efficiency of the LEDs drops very fast. Expending that 10 or 20 degree wide beam of light to 30 or 40 degrees... well... do the math... lets say you have an 12" diameter spotlight at 24", and you expand it to 24"... thats an increase in area of 4x! So if you take the same amount of output and cover that larger area... you just cut your output to 1/4! Halides and T5s, by comparison, have reflectors that bleed light all over the place, but at least they provide light to more places in a tank. Imagine what they could do if there was a way to focus 90% or more of their light into a 10-20 degree arc like LEDs... WOW. We could light a 6' tall tank with 150wattDE halides!

[PFO Lighting]

hahnmeister,
"
Here, check out this DIY system by Zachtos that uses the same luxeon stars that the PFO uses... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...25&pagenumber=9
His final results, with 24 of the luxeons @3 watts each, was less output than his previous 26 watts of PC! OUCH!"

I expected more out of you. I usually see very informative and thought provocative comments from you. Since you have played with LED's you should know that the number of variables in the light output of LED's and then putting that light onto a surface is extreme. So one persons first attempt with a little money to design a DIY version of the Solaris is a very poor comparison. Lets think about some of the reasons the DIY project did not perform well:
1. Heat dissipation. As LED's get hot their light output goes down. This is the primary reason why DIY's can not produce a DIY project to compete with the Solaris.

2. Drive Current. What was the actual power running through the LED's? every inch of wire increases the resistance which decreases the current which than again decreases the light output. Was he overdriving the LED's and increasing light output which was being off set by the light loss due to increase heat or was he underdriveing the LED's and not producing enough light.

3. Optics. How is he getting the light that is produced onto the surface he wants to light?

To make a simple LED moon light is easily accomplished by a DIY project. But to replace a metal halide light, at any wattage, requires a huge amount of LED knowledge and massive amounts of money for R&D.

We spent 3 years developing this fixture. We had it tested at the Lumileds testing laboratory. We have had more hours of design meetings with Lumiled engineers, heat sink engineers, and power supply engineers than I care to think about. I could fill a room of failed attemps at designing the Solaris. By the way, in the last 3 days I have spent 24 hours on designing LED fixtures and watching them either fail or perform poorly. And I have been doing this for 3 years!

So it disapppoints me that you would use a first try from a DIY person to compare and degrade the Solaris. I understand you are unimpressed with the Solaris for a heavy SPS tank. There are obviously others who disagree with you. My position is it depends on the size of the tank. If it is 6" deep then there is no problem. If it is 48" deep than it will not work. If it is somewhere in between then there are a large number of variables.

By the way you are one of the posters that I pay attention to.
I have gleaned some very valuable insights from some of your posts. I can only improve the products we supply by comments like yours and other people who either have our products or do not and then state why they do or do not like the products.

And yes I have already heard your comments on our T5 fixtures. But I refuse to invest in a technology that is probably going to die within the next 5 years.

Patrick Ormiston
PFO Lighting Inc

[hahnmeister]

True, drivers and the wiring do change the output of LEDs alot, but as you said... you just spent 24 hours testing LED's and most failed. optics as well... lenses and/or reflectors could have gone a long way with Zachtos.

True, Zachtos didnt do things as well as could have been done, and Im sure you guys at PFO are dedicated to what you do. I have no doubt that in a couple years time you guys will have units that everyone will be drooling over... but right now, I just dont see it. The technology just isnt there. You are still talking about a technology that has about 1/3-1/2 the output per watt of a halide or T5. Focusing that light is one way around it, but it comes with its own problems (like spotlight burning of corals). Im not trying to say that because one kid's DIY attempt with luxeons didnt do much that then the Solaris must not be worth it... just that LED's arent where we want them to be yet. I mean, come on... I found the exact performance numbers for luxeons... 35 to 40 lumens per watt!?!? And thats on a good day... the white ones are in the 25 range. With Halides of T5s, a good DIYer can even make a light system that is top-notch, sometimes better than the MFG's make.

I had the chance to look over a unit in Atlanta... a 4' unit in a store. I had my PAR meter on me because I wanted to do some readings on the corals being grown by a nifty store there called Cappucino Bay (they use 1000watt 20,000K bulbs in lumenarcs with light movers and get some killer results with their frag farming vats), and another store nearby had a Solaris running, and when I asked to take readings, the employees were all for it since I happened to have the PAR meter out in the car. The PAR readings were alright. It was a 20,000K unit, and the readings were pretty much on PAR with Dana's original write-up, thats why I didnt bother making a big deal about it. Dont get me wrong, I would rather use these than XM 20,000K halides, but those bulbs blow anyways. When I used the XDE 20,000Ks, I could hardly grow anything with them.

The bulb husbandry problems are another thing. The output of some of these LEDs is so narrow with the blue that you have to add other colors in or green and pink corals just dont look good. Mothra's blog at frags.org shows that first hand with T5s. From the feedback on the PFOs, as well as the decision to include green LEDs in the arrays, it seems that there are some spectrum things to resolve as well...??? Perhaps adding some 3000Kish or Red LED's will happen in the future?

[brad23]

I would look at T6 instead

[PFO Lighting]

To answer your question on Spectrum. We currently do not see changing the spectrum of any of the LED's. Dana printed our spectrum curves in his article. Since the article we have added a couple of green LED's to help enhance one piece of the spectrum that appeared to be a little low in relation to the rest of the spectrum.

As far as the strong blue content. We supply both a blue 20K look and a 13K look to appeal to a broader customer base. As we all know everyone has an opionion on color and they are all different.

Thank you for your comments.
Patrick Ormiston