Two Tanks, 1 Sump

samwrang · #1 10/14/2006, 11:38 AM

I'm trying to figure out my plumbing to incorporate a frag tank. I have an established 200G with 50G sump. I'd like to include a new 50G frag tank with possibly a small fuge.

Can I link the frag tank to this system to improve the water quantity? The overflows, and pumps seem to get tricky without risking some serious flooding by pumping from one tank to another before hitting the main return back to the big tank.

I do have another skimmer available, am I better off running two completely seperate systems - side by side?

jake levi · #2 10/14/2006, 01:02 PM

Need more information.

How big are your returns/outlet lines ?

I dont see why it cant be done. Are you using really big pumps for the returns ?

I recently saw a very good system with powerheads for return water to three different tanks. The key is the water level in the sump but this one has high sides. All 3 tanks have overflow boxes on them. Works very nice. He has a skimmer that is in the sump, it handles all 3 tanks.

Where do you see your bottleneck ?

spineshank385 · #3 10/14/2006, 01:08 PM

If its a frag tank, it would be better for the two tanks to be connected, that way when you frag a coral, you can move it to the frag tank, and it doesnt have to adjust to different water conditions.

I have a 29g (display), a 20g rubbermaid (frag), and a 20g rubbermaid (fuge) connected to a 20L sump. Water is pumped to the display and frag tank by a single mag 9.5 (split using a T, and ball valves on both lines to regulate flow). Water gravity feeds from the display to the fuge, then to the sump. Also from the frag tank straight to the sump.

When I disconnect the pump, water fills the sump to within about 3" from the top. this is CRUCIAL. Be sure your sump will not overflow in the event of power outage.

samwrang · #4 10/14/2006, 01:28 PM

Returns are 1" with a GenX PCX 40 pump.

I could tee the return to a second tank and use a valve to adjust pressure to each.

The Frag Tank could then just use the bottom bulkhead as the overflow with makeshift Dorso pipe on it I suppose.

From my understanding I don't need a large volume water change in the frag tank. Just lots of flow from some powerheads inside the tank itself.

How would you guys suggest incorporating a refugium into this setup?

spineshank385 · #5 10/14/2006, 01:29 PM

Drain the water from the frag tank (or the display) to the refugium, then to the sump.

samwrang · #6 10/14/2006, 01:41 PM

Looking at my diagram I'm leaning towards joining two 50G tanks togther with the 1" bulkhead to basically double the size of my sump.

I would be cutting it close during a power failure on holding all the volume of 3 tanks in one sump.

Then I would have two tanks (200G and 50G) overflowing into two joined sumps. One sump would hold two skimmers, the other would be the refugium with the main return teeing back into the two main tanks.

Thoughts?

samwrang · #7 10/14/2006, 01:41 PM

One other questions, wont the main return suck everything out of the refugium and make a mess out of my pump?

spineshank385 · #8 10/15/2006, 06:40 AM

you need to make baffles in your sump using acrylic or glass to keep everything in place.

jake levi · #9 10/15/2006, 08:11 AM

Your returns need to be plumbed so that they only remove overflow.

With the power off the sump would only be holding its basic water plus what is in the lines. Thats why the overflow filters are best, they only take water out that is over the fill lines. The better ones have a box on the outside that maintains the siphon when the power is off. If the power is off then of course your pump stops pumping so no more water is put back into the tanks.

As was pointed out having the frag tank on the system simplifys having the same water in both tanks so no acclimating problems for frags.

My personal favorite for sumps is chaeto, denitrifys the best and cuts out needs for skimmers.

depending on the kinds of coral they may need heavy water flow or no, planktonic feeders yes, discosoma no. In fact they are harmed by heavy water current, if you have any in the frag tank best to put them in eddys or low current areas.

spineshank385 · #10 10/15/2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jake levi
Your returns need to be plumbed so that they only remove overflow.

With the power off the sump would only be holding its basic water plus what is in the lines. Thats why the overflow filters are best, they only take water out that is over the fill lines. The better ones have a box on the outside that maintains the siphon when the power is off. If the power is off then of course your pump stops pumping so no more water is put back into the tanks.

i strongly disagree here. Drilled tank w/bulkheads and internal overflow box is by FAR the best way to go. Utilizing this method, it is IMPOSSIBLE to overflow your tank OR sump if you plan everything out. With siphon overflows, there is always a chance you can lose the siphon, from air bubbles, snails getting stuck, algae, etc.

I've had siphon overflows stop working. you end up coming home after work, to find your sump empty, with your tank overflowing. not fun at all.

also, even with chaetomorpha, you will still want to skim. Chaeto does not "eat" everything. It feeds upon nitrogoneous waste. The waste is created by organics dissolving in the water and tank. Its best if you use a skimmer, as the skimmer will not only catch already dissolved particles, but also particles that haven't fully dissolved. A good skimmer is the key to waste removal. Macroalgae is just the icing on the cake

jake levi · #11 10/15/2006, 03:48 PM

Okay Mr Student, come and tell me fifteen years from now if you still believe all of this. If you're still in the hobby or industry.

I wish I had ten bucks for every drained system using bulkheads that I have seen.

Re skimmers, you're not too far from Romulous MI, drive over and look at Tropicorium and count the skimmers in use. And btw, he has more corals then any other single business in the US. Also a sizeable number of fish. Not a skimmer in the place in use. He's also been in the business probably about as long as you have been alive, or longer.

btw, before you decide to lecture anyone on the nitrite cycle etc, you might want to check their profiles, then you wont look quite so silly.

There are as many ways to do this as there are people doing them, there is NO right way on any of this. Whether ornot it works depends on the operator.

I wouldnt have jumped on you quite so hard if you had been in more of a discussion mode,

samwrang · #12 10/15/2006, 08:54 PM

The tank is drilled with bulkheads and an internal overflow. I appreciate all the information coming in.

Is it possible to over filter the nitrates? I read the thread on the Remote Deep Sand Beds and added it to the process.

So now it would flow in this order

1.) Water drops from main tank into sump via overflow.
2.) Water flows into prefiltering trays and then into second sump chamber.
3.) Skimmer pump grabs water from second chamber and then mechanically filters it.
4.) Pump in second chamber also pumps water to a "T" with one line running to fuge and other line running to Remote Deep Sand Bed. Both return the water via a bulkhead using gravity.
5.) Powerhead also in second chamber gently flows water up to propogation tank and lets it trickle back down to main sump via gravity.
6.) Water is then pumped via the main return back to the main tank.

jake levi · #13 10/16/2006, 02:28 PM

A potential Murphy effect is I count 3 pumps plus powerheads, I know some 1500 gallon systems that dont have that many pumps.

Can you gravity flow all into the sand bed/fuge and from there to the main sump and then pump back to the main tank? Then your power head is the only other pump and its independent of the main pump cycle.

Is your filter tray/2nd chamber physically higher then your main sump ? If you can draw your skimmer water off before the filter trays you'll do better. Them all water through the fuge, then sand bed and then to main sump where most goes to the main tank and some to the prop tank. Water to your prop tank should come out of the same chamber that also goes back to the main tank. The more you can get your water flow to be from gravity the last chances you'll have for disasters.

samwrang · #14 10/16/2006, 07:38 PM

Jake - By Murphy effect I assume you mean a problem with flooding.

I actually started the design with gravity feeds but found I was more at risk with gravity feeding multiple tanks to a single sump.

The setup I propose with individual pumps and overflows acts like 3 individual systems but all using the same water supply. None of the tanks are pumped both directions.

Also I asked LFS about the filter trays. They seem counterintuitive to me. I would think the skimmer would be more effiecient working with waste before it is broken down.

The LFS said skimmers pull the nitrates from the water itself, not the solid waste and that pre-filtering the water works better?

A little off topic but it is all related to the design of my prop tank so I'm hoping to get some opinions.

jake levi · #15 10/17/2006, 06:03 AM

Nitrates are the finished product of the denitrifying cycle, raw urea and nitrites are the causes/content of the foam the skimmers remove, from fish and coral wastes, chaeto is excellent as it uses both in growth. The skimmer is a form of filtering, or a part of it, if the water needs to be prefiltered the skimmer isnt doing much. Not to knock the LFS but they sound clueless.

Murphy effect as in Murphys Law, "if something can go wrong it will at the worst possible time". The more pumps that there are in a system the more opportunities for something to go wrong.

Yes, if the sump is to be able to avoid disaster it has to be large enough to contain all the water that could come into it other then the main tank. But having the various parts gravity feed into the sump simplifys both pumping and water flow. If the sump is large enough to hold all the water other then the main tank then its 'no worries man'. Otoh, disaster is always near by.

gws294 · #16 11/22/2006, 06:14 PM

Just a quick thought... (as I currently have a system similar) with 3 pumps to 3 tanks, you might think of some type of float shut-off switch to turn off pumps if water level in tanks start to exceed "drain rate", especially if you use an external overflow.....

Safety first, dry floors second. LOL

Geoff