Help With Disease

[EricP]

Greetings:
Hopefully not repeating too many past posts...new to the group and haven't been able to get through them all.
Need some help with disease diagnosis and treatment.
First, the setup...I have a 55 gallon tank with crushed coral substrate, about 30lb of live rock, two tangs, two clowns, an anemone, an arrow crab, a few snails and hermits, plus a few bugs that came in on live rock, a sand-sifter star and a brittle star. Up until this morning, I also had two damsels. Running two hang on wet-dry filters and two additional powerheads for circulation. I have had the tank for two months, but it was a functioning tank for many years when it was given to me.
Now the disease...approximately one week ago began noticing white fluffy dots on the tangs...no erratic behavior or loss of appetite. Spots on the body, but heavily concentrated on the fins and tails. Spots then began to show up on the damsels, then the clowns. Fish began to concentrate in the flow of the powerheads, but not actuallly scraping themselves on rocks etc.
Began using a product called Melafix at the suggestion of my fish store. No change in two days. LFS then recommended soaking my food in a combination of Focus (which I believe is just a bonding agent) and Metronidazole. Been doing this for 3-4 days now along with the Melafix...perhaps a slight resolution of the spots but not completely, but yesterday started getting cloudy eyes, particularly the Tangs. No apparent respiratory distress except for the Damsels which died this morning.
The only new items were the anemone and a new piece of rock. The anemone had been in the store for quite some time before I purchased him..no signs of disease in their tank.
Water quality is good...ph, salinity, temp, and nitrates are all within limits.
Fish store originally said I had Ich, then decided it was fungal, but I really don't know. Have been reading up on various types of coral reef/ white spot disease...looks more like that to me, but I just don't know.
I have no QT at this time and have avoided copper based meds because of the anemone, snails etc....My fish store guy says they avoid copper and are able to clear up most any problems with the above treatment. They also said if I actually had ICH, the fish would all have died by now??
Meanwhile, other than the spots and cloudy eyes and occasionally basking in the flow of the powerheads, the other fish are still behaving relatively normal.

At this stage, I'm VERY open to suggestions and appreciate any help from the forum.
Thanks!
Eric

[ATJ]

Eric,

To Reef Central

Did/do the spots look like salt at all? Spots, cloudy eyes and breathing "difficulties" are all signs of marine "Ich". Note that the spots are normally only visible for around 6 days. They will reappear in a week or two.

Marine "Ich" is caused by a parasite called Cryptocaryon irritans. C. irritans gets introduced into our tanks on fish and occasionally on things like live rock if the live rock has been kept in a tank with fish (that were infected). The fish would be swimming in the flow to increase their oxygen uptake which has been limited by parasites on the gills.

While "Ich" can kill and kill quickly, fish may last as long as 2 months before it kills them or they can develop an immunity.

See Marine "Ich" for more details.

Neither Melafix not Metronidazole are effective for the treatment of "Ich" and the only two proven (readily available and performable) treatments are copper and hyposalinity. These treatments should not be combined and must be done in a separate tank free of invertebrates. I recommend Hyposalinity, but you require an accurate device for measuring the specific gravity of the treatment water - a refractometer being the best device.

You will need to set up a quarantine/treatment tank amd treat all the fish. Hyposalinity treatment will take around 6 weeks overall and leaving the main tank without fish for this period of time will result in the death of all the C. irritans in that tank.

Once you have treated the fish and put the fish back, you should quarantine all new fish for at least 6 weeks before placing them into the main tank to avoid reintroduction of parasites.

[EricP]

ATJ:
Thanks for your quick reply! The spots themselves really don't look that much like grains of salt to me. While they are about the size of a grain of salt, or slightly bigger, they really appear to have more of a fluffy or dusty look to them rather that a well-defined grain.
I have since been in touch with my fish store again. They have offered to allow me to use their quarantine tank for as along as necessary. I plan to remove my fish and take them to the store within the next two days. I hate to wait that long, but it's 60 miles away and schedules just won't permit me to get there sooner.
We discussed the option of Copper treatment which the fish guy felt would probably be necessary, but he admitted that they really hadn't had a great success rate with it. (He's still leaning towards a fungal diagnosis...for the following reasons: 1. spots seem to increase at night when the lights are off and tend to wane a bit over the course of the day...he says that's opposite of typical ich. 2. The fish don't scape themselves or swim erratically
3. Spots have been there for a week now with no deceiving resolution as the buggers drop off to restart their life cycle).

I'm open to your opinion!


Couple other quick questions:
-Somewhere in here I read that Copper treatment was almost a death sentence to Yellow Tangs anyway???
-If, as I have read, Anemones carry or harbor ich, will the C. irritans continue to live on the anemone even in absence of a fish host.
-My arrow crab also has the white spots on his claws. (I guess it's possible that he had white spots on his claws all along and now I'm paranoid.) Is this significant in terms of diagnosis? i.e. Do crabs get Ich? Should the crab be quarantined with the fish and would copper be toxic (read: lethal) to him?
-and lastly: The only significant thing I have done since acquiring the tank in terms of filtration is to remove the riser tubes from my undergravel filters. This was suggested by the LFS because he said more current thought was not to disturb the anerobes etc in the substrate and just let the filter do its thing by sucking in water from about mid depth in the tank. Do you agree with this?

I know that's a lot of questions. I'm really starting to struggle with the inconsistent information that I get from various fish stores, books, and 'experts' .
Again, thanks a million for your reply.
Eric

[ATJ]

Eric,

Originally posted by EricP

The spots themselves really don't look that much like grains of salt to me. While they are about the size of a grain of salt, or slightly bigger, they really appear to have more of a fluffy or dusty look to them rather that a well-defined grain.

Maybe you need to have your eyes tested. (Optometrist joke - no offence intended).

I have since been in touch with my fish store again. They have offered to allow me to use their quarantine tank for as along as necessary. I plan to remove my fish and take them to the store within the next two days. I hate to wait that long, but it's 60 miles away and schedules just won't permit me to get there sooner.

If the fish do have "Ich", the 60 mile journey will probably kill them. Other than disturbances to their osmoreulatory function, "Ich" attacks the gills and severely reduces their ability to take up oxygen. Putting them in a bag for 1-2 hours will not help in this respect.

We discussed the option of Copper treatment which the fish guy felt would probably be necessary, but he admitted that they really hadn't had a great success rate with it.

In what way has he had no success? It has killed the fish directly, or failed to stop the infection?

Copper is not very easy to administer as it is not very stable. It is more stable in saltwater than fresh, but even in saltwater a number of factors can influence its stability. If you end up with too low a concentration it will not kill the parasites and too high can kill the fish. The copper concentration needs to be monitored regularly - twice daily in the first few days of treatment and daily after that. You can't use copper in a tank with any calcium carbonate material - sand, live rock, coral skeletons - as calcium carbonate absorbs the copper very quickly.

A complexed copper, such as Seachem Cupramine, increases the stability and appears to have a much better safety margin. It also appears to be safe for copper sensitive species.

While the offer of the quarantine tank at the store is good, being 60 miles away you are going to have to rely on the store to do all the necessary monitoring. I'm sure they'll be very busy running the store and may not be able to pay enough attention to your fish and the copper concentration. You may also have a hard time convincing them to use Cupramine - unless that stock it.

(He's still leaning towards a fungal diagnosis

I don't believe a fungal (or bacterial) infection would spread that quickly between your fish. It is also unlikely to cause respiratory difficulties (fish swimming into the flow) and should not cause deaths that quickly.

...for the following reasons: 1. spots seem to increase at night when the lights are off and tend to wane a bit over the course of the day...he says that's opposite of typical ich.

Are you talking number or size? Are you comparing lights off to lights on, or at different times when the lights are on? If the lighting is not exactly the same, it might be difficult to judge differences, especially when the spots are raised on the fish.

"Ich" shouldn't wane either day or night as the trophonts pretty much stay put for the duration - 3 to 7 days.

2. The fish don't scape themselves or swim erratically

This does not rule out "Ich". Even heavily infested fish may show no change in behaviour.

3. Spots have been there for a week now with no deceiving resolution as the buggers drop off to restart their life cycle).

Exactly how many days have the spots been visible on each fish? If it is up to 7 days, it still could be "Ich", if it is more than 7 days, it tends to rule out "Ich", unless the life cycles of the parasites are already out of synch. which can happen after a number of cycles.

-Somewhere in here I read that Copper treatment was almost a death sentence to Yellow Tangs anyway???

Copper is toxic to all organisms, just that different organisms have different sensitivities. Tangs appear to be more sensitive. Cupramine doesn't often cause problems with sensitive fish but is still effective for killing the parasites.

Of course, hyposalinity is much safer and this is why I recommend it.

-If, as I have read, Anemones carry or harbor ich, will the C. irritans continue to live on the anemone even in absence of a fish host.

Hobbyist bunk! C. irritans is obligate. Theronts must find and infect bony fish in order to survive. If they don't, they'll starve and die within 24-48 hours. Most will be dead within 12 hours. The reproductive phase (tomont) can last as long as 4 weeks. (I should note that in one study some tomonts lasted 35 days, but this appears to be uncommon.) The parasite can not survive longer than 30 days (or 37 days considering the exceptional tomonts) without a bony fish being present.

-My arrow crab also has the white spots on his claws. (I guess it's possible that he had white spots on his claws all along and now I'm paranoid.) Is this significant in terms of diagnosis? i.e. Do crabs get Ich? Should the crab be quarantined with the fish and would copper be toxic (read: lethal) to him?

Only bony fish can host C. irritans trophonts. Crabs cannot.

-and lastly: The only significant thing I have done since acquiring the tank in terms of filtration is to remove the riser tubes from my undergravel filters. This was suggested by the LFS because he said more current thought was not to disturb the anerobes etc in the substrate and just let the filter do its thing by sucking in water from about mid depth in the tank. Do you agree with this?

This would have had no impact on fish becoming infected with "Ich" or not. It may have changed the water conditions which could cause a lowering of resistance to bacterial or fungal infections, but I'm far from convinced that's what your fish have.

I know that's a lot of questions. I'm really starting to struggle with the inconsistent information that I get from various fish stores, books, and 'experts' .

"Ich" is one of the most poorly understood aspects in this hobby. That is not to say that the parasite is not well understood - it is well understood by science - it is just that hobbyists seem to prefer their little theories and these propagate through the hobby. The other source of bad information appears to come from the freshwater hobby. As there is freshwater "Ich", many believe this is the same as marine "Ich" and all the principles apply. While the signs and even the life cycles are superficially similar, the parasite itself is very different.

[EricP]

Optometrist joke - no offence intended - None taken...I'm used to it. Mebe I can answer some Optical questions for you someday.

Putting them in a bag for 1-2 hours will not help in this respect.
- Thought I'd put them in a 5 gal bucket with a portable aerator and lid. That's how I moved them when I inherited the tank...they did well and it was a 200 miler. They had been unattended for weeks...(owner deceased). When I rescued them, the salinity was literally off the scale from evaporation.

It has killed the fish directly? - Apparently so.

Are you talking number or size? Are you comparing lights off to lights on, or at different times when the lights are on? - General appearance when I turn the aquarium light on in the a.m. Tank is in the basement and gets 12+ hours of "lights on". Fish have just appeared generally more healthy with less noticable spots and clearer eyes later in the day, but they look awful with white spots on them everywhere when I first turn the lights on. Seem to get better as the day goes on. Of course, when I just looked at them, (7:22 pm - lights on since 9 am) they seem to be getting worse ie...more white spots, more noticable on the bodies now.

Exactly how many days have the spots been visible on each fish - Tangs and damsels x7days. Clowns x5 days.

hyposalinity is much safer and this is why I recommend it - probably more difficult to get the LFS to do..more time required etc... May have to set up my own QT in a hurry I guess. Planned on it anyway, just not ready yet. I'll suggest it to them though.

Hobbyist bunk! C. irritans is obligate - OK, at least I can get new fish in 6 weeks if worst comes to worst (and it's sounding like that's the case)

Only bony fish can host C. irritans trophonts. Crabs cannot. - figured that....that's what makes me curious about the white spots on his claws.

This would have had no impact on fish becoming infected with "Ich" or not. It may have changed the water conditions which could cause a lowering of resistance to bacterial or fungal infections, but I'm far from convinced that's what your fish have - Thought it might have added to increase in detritous leading to fungal problems....Do you agree that the undergravel filter should be removed, or more efficient to plumb it back in?

it is just that hobbyists seem to prefer their little theories - Yeah, I felt like an idiot trying to get them to eat garlic.

Figured my next purchase would be a UV sterilizer...Too late for these guys, but are they as good as I have been told in preventing this type of disease?

Thanks once more.
Eric

[ATJ]

A bucket with aeration would certainly help things - although you'll still have a build up of wastes like ammonia.

Seven days is just on the limit for trophonts. However, assuming the tomonts were introduced on the live rock, the life cycles may have already been unsynchronised and so it is possible you are seeing parasites that are not attaching and leaving at the same times.

Burgess and Matthews (1994) have evidence that suggests trophonts leave the fish during darkness and that theronts emerge during darkness. This would result in new parasites attaching before lights on, but suggests existing parasites would stay attached until after lights out.

I have no strong opinion either way with regards the undergravel filter. My quarantine tank has an operational undergravel filter and has not caused me any problems - other than not being able to use copper but I have not needed to treat with copper in it to date. Up until a few weeks ago one of my FOWLR had an UGF. It was a DIY special and was not the plate variety. There were two independent piping structures and I had turned one off a couple of years ago and was still running the other. It caused no problems at all and the only reason I don't have it still is the tank started leaking (the tank was 28 years old) and had to be replaced.

I wouldn't rule out garlic as a treatment but I also wouldn't bet the farm on it. It is possible that it works although no-one can explain how or why.

UV sterilizers are generally ineffective for the treatment or prevention of "Ich" because the free-swimming stage of the life cycle is too short. Please read the article I linked above- it covers many of these topics.

[EricP]

Hey ATJ:
Decided to take matters into my own hands. Can't count on the LFS to do my dirty work if I'm going to stay with this hobby. Went to Walmart...10ga tank with hangon filter, hood and light for $29 US. Started hyposalinity titration as per your linked article. Probably too late. Should have started that right off the bat rather than fool with medications and remedies that were "reef-safe" in an attempt to solve the problem without tearing down my tank.
Anyway, I can always use the 10g for a quarantine tank in the future (Hind-sight is 20/20....)

Probably will loose the fish, but at least I'm trying.

Presumably, while the display tank is setting idle, it would be a great time to build up my cleaner crew and add more live rock. Effectively, they would be in 'quarantine' while the tank sets for six weeks. (Right??)

Also...related or not I don't know...today, noticed a veritable bloom of new organisms....some are snowflake like critters that I have seen on a Hitchhiker's page somewhere, others are little buggers about 1mm in length crawling around on the glass (hundreds of them). I know they weren't there before and the fish have only been out for 24 hours. Surely the fish weren't keeping them at bay previously? I also assume that no stage of C. irritans is actually visible to the eye??

[EricP]

ATJ:
PS: Visibility of C. irritans: Of course, the spots on the fish are visible...(duh). But didn't know if the spots were actually the organism...or the result of the organism's feasting on my tang.

PPS: the critters are in the display tank, not the quarantine.

[ATJ]

You can add some invertebrates and live rock to the tank during the fallow period, but be careful about where you get them. If they have been kept in tanks with fish - or tanks connected to tanks with fish - it is possible for the invertebrates, and the live rock in particular - to have attached tomonts and introduce them into the tank.

If you are going to do it, do it as early as possible and leave the tank fallow as long as possible after adding them.

Have a look through my Hitchhikers pages. The first page has a link to a couple of others pages that you can look at. Very few hitchhikers can be classed as "bad".

The non-trophont stages of C. irritans are generally not visible to the naked eye - unless you have super sight. The spots on the fish are the trophonts, but they usually congregate which makes them look larger and non-uniform.

[EricP]

OK thanks again. I figured it best to add the LR right away and have already purchased another 14 lbs along with a few hermits and some more snails, a nice anemone that the LFS wanted rid of, and an emerald crab. Figured I could at least watch those guys while the tank sits there for six weeks.

Looks like the hitchhikers are primarily hydroids and copepods...just amazed at the sudden appearance after all this time. I guess the fish were feeding on them pretty heavily? Struck me as funny that they appeared so quickly after removing the fish.

Also read your bio...sounds like you have a great background and a true love of marine life. I envy your opportunity to dive in such great locations. I get to dive on vacation maybe once a year and have really yet to see what I would consider truly great abundances of fish life.

Best regards.
"3-fish-Eric"

[ATJ]

Eric,
What species of anemone? If you are unsure, can you get a picture or describe it? Anemones generally have a poor record in captivity, partly because people don't feed them often enough and partly because there may be aspects of their requirements we don't understand - which depends on the species. I recommend you read up as much as you can on anemones and try to provide all their requirements.

The hitchhikers would have all been present but probably hiding due to the fish - they wouldn't be able to increase their populations all that quickly.

I wish I could get to the GBR more often. I'm trying hard now to get up there once a year with a research scientist friend. These were my last two trips:

Undersea 2003

Undersea 2002

[RARZILLO]

are they cottony growths? My tang still as this growth on the side of his body. his fin as recently been touching it ......now his fin has the growth.....i am leaning toward lymphocystis(mispelled?)...or some type of fungal growth........I think M. blue (forgot the name) or something like that might help us both.

[EricP]

In retrospect, I wouldn't really say they were cotton-like. Now that I have my eyes checked they were probably more like salt. I have the fish in quarantine now and am making the final dilution to .009 this morn. Most of the spots have dropped off from what I can tell, but fish are sure stressed. Not sure they can make it.

ATJ: Not sure what the anemone are. I'll research it and let you know. The LFS wasn't sure either( they had bought a piece of rock from a customer and the anemone was part of the deal...I couldn't resist him for $5) it's a reddish colored Condy, but beyond that I don't know. I have had a large white one in the tank already that has done pretty well so far. I feed him zooplankton (sp?), a shot of frozen brine shrimp once in while, and once or twice a week a frozen shrimp. It's a kick to watch him inhale that shrimp.

Most of my diving has been on yearly family vacations to Jamaica or Mexico...Not the GBR by a long stretch, but better than the quarry pits of Indiana!

[EricP]

Hey ATJ:
Update on hyposalinity treatment of Ich. Lost the last clown on Sunday. Completed the last dilution to .009 on Monday Morning. The two remaining yellow tangs have been at .009 since Monday and appear to be doing quite well.
Thanks and best regards,
Eric

[ATJ]

Eric,

Bad news about the clown but good about the tangs. If they are not showing any spots now, there's a very good chance they'll be fine.